OK, brief report on the anti-war march in London yesterday. Same route, same time, same everything, so, while I obviously could not do a head count, I could compare it to the last one to which one million people (according to the goverment, and two millions according to the organisers) took part. My impression (from being at the same spots at the same times and climbing on things to observe the crowd in the same places and recording the time it took for the march to be completed) is that there was about half the same amount of people this time (half a million). That pretty well fulfilled the organisers' expectations (less than last time, explained by the fact that it was organized at very short notice this time and that most people can't see the point of protesting against a war which is happening anyway).

So, approximately 500,000 people. After the march, the BBC reported 'police figures' of 100,000 later amended to 200,000. Today they are not mentioning any figures at all or showing any -revealing- footage of the whole march, or indeed reporting the protests much at all, as they did last time.

In other words, this was not only the largest war-time demonstration in the history of Britain (the previous largest demonstration was last month, before the war) but also by far the largest censorship and blackout operation ever carried out by the media in my lifetime! ;) The organisers claim that 700,000 people marched, which totally confirms my own impression of 500,000 (that is the usual exaggeration;). Well, they also mention on their website that they are aware of blackouts and that we have a democratic right to complain to the media if we feel they have misrepresented the truth. They provide a link and I will be on to it as soon as I have time...

Impression of the day: the first casualty of war is truth (as if you didn't know;) and many people will be disheartened and will give up protesting when they find that they have the right to speak, but no longer the right to be heard. I'm glad the BBC is allowed to report friendly-fire tragedies. But if these go on at the present rate (and they will intensify as the fight itself intensifies, the US/UK troops have met little resistance so far after all), I wonder if we will hear more about them...

Right.. Off to London again this afternoon for tonight's Peace Concert. Looking forward to that. Hey, that will be the first time I see Ian McKellen in the flesh! (I'll see Dance of Death next weekend).
GML
UK, - Sunday, March 23rd 2003 - 03:38:40 AM

Every morning I awake to the BBC Radio 4 news (7am weekdays, 8am weekends). On Thursday morning I hear that an American helicopter had crashed killing all the British troops and US aircrew on board. Yesterday I awoke to hear that 2 British helicopters had collided, killing all on board. This morning I awoke to hear that a British plane is missing believed to be brought down by a US Patriot missile. On the same bulletin, I hear that the alleged *terrorist* attack on US troops in Kuwait (killing one and injuring another 8 or 9)was apparently caused by a US soldier.
One begins to wonder why we went to war when we are doing such an effective job on ourselves?
Unfortunately, these poor guys are no *less dead* because of *friendly fire* than if it was caused by the Iraquis.
Sue
England, - Sunday, March 23rd 2003 - 02:20:00 AM

Thanks for the reports on marches and CDIII. I just want to say that there are lots of illegals in the US that aren't being targeted as terrorists by the government. It's just the same thing that happened to Japanese Americans during WWII.
Dee
US, - Sunday, March 23rd 2003 - 12:13:30 AM

I've been working long hours (Sunday is my only day off), so I haven't been over here for a bit and I see I've been missing a lot of wonderful reports. Thanks GML for all the great reviews. :-)

Bettina, hopefully this anti-French sentiment will calm down in the not too distant future. As far as French/American schools go, I suspect the city one chooses could make a big difference. A place like the S.F. Bay Area has several of them (or at least they did 6 years ago when I was still there), and the French are generally liked in that area - in fact, there are a lot of French who live there. Friday at work at our school a guest speaker introduced himself to us as Mr. Pigot and made a point of saying that even though his ancesters were French, the fact that they moved to Ireland and lived there for a generation or two made him Irish, not French, and he hoped we'd forgive him the French side - or something like that. It was not a friendly joke, and I couldn't believe he was being so stupid as to say it, but he did, and one can only hope that all this nonesense will subside soon.

Observer, thank you for your comments. We see things a bit differently, no doubt due to our personal experiences, but that's what keeps things interesting I guess.

Christine - well, I confess, the 350,000 was not a typo. :-) It feels small to me because I lived in the S.F. area before, and am now an hour and 1/2 north of L.A., which of course is very large. It also feels small because there are unusually low levels of education here, lots of drop-outs, lots of drugs and gangs, the Ku-Klux-Klan, high levels of unemployment, and so on. It is behind the times on almost all levels. Also, most of my students are from the small farm towns in the area, so sometimes it feels like I'm out in the fields teaching - which is very interesting, and I've learned a lot from it, but again, it gives the whole area a rather unique feel in that regard. So no, it's not small in the sense you mean, although the closed mindedness here sometimes makes it feel as if it were. I've known truly small towns that were open in their thinking that felt much larger. :-)

I've really enjoyed everyone's posts. If I don't post from time to time, it's simply a time issue.


"T"
California, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 11:33:40 PM

Oh please, nobody says "Deutschland über alles" nowadays. That was the first line of the nazi national anthem and you will be prosecuted by law if you sing it. Only radical right winged people say this and the are not patriots of any kind but chauvinists and mostly racists. Democratic german patriotic people would never say these words. So you cannot compare it with "God bless America" or " God save the Queen".
I myself have never understood what patriotism might be, I ever wished to be a cosmopolitan. There are nice and bad people in every country. That's the whole thing.
amelie , <Germany>
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 07:30:41 PM

It is possible that there are good reasons why these people have been arrested or detained. Read this article. Scroll down about three quarters of the way for this line: "Among the Iraqis being sought for questioning are 3,000 illegal immigrants said to be missing, amid U.S. concerns that some could be connected with groups or agents of the Iraqi regime". If our intelligence agents do their job well, perhaps no terrorist attacks will happen. If they don't... God help us.
Christine
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 07:26:59 PM

Jen, I just heard on NPR that a dozen Iraqi men have been arrested in Michigan and 100s more are being looked for in the that state to be brought in for questioning. Also, a similar number have been arrested in Indiana and again 100s more are being sought for questioning. I don't think you can under-estimate the level of fear in the Arab-American community about speaking out regarding support or objection to this war and the Bush government. I'm also pretty sure that the whole range of opinion regarding support of the war is present among Iraqi-Americans. (Many Arab-Americans in Michigan supported Bush in the 2000 election because they objected to what they considered the Clinton administration's strong-arming of Arafat in negotiations with Israel. Remember that?)
Lily
Chicago, IL, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 06:33:10 PM

In her first post on March 20, Troy noted her support of the troops. I don't know if people who aren't from the US know about the changes here since the Vietnam War. The draft has been abolished, mainly because of the resistance and opposition to the war which it generated (and the military and governmental desire to not have rebellious troops). A professional army has been established. We no longer have a "citizen army".

The military mainly draws from bright high school students who are predominantly African-American and relatively recent Latin-American immigrants because university education in this country has become so incredibly expensive that families find it impossible to send kids on to school without major assistance, like the military's commitment to educate.

My son went to one of the city's high schools and on any visit the role the military played in the life of the school was very apparent. Hall monitors are kids wearing U.S. military uniforms. That image about says it all. If you are a Mexican-American youth with math and/or science skills, the brass ring at a good college education is to join high school ROTC (Reserved Officer Training Corps) and have university paid for. These kids and their families have been playing "lotto" hoping that they can make it through without having to pay the price being extracted now.

I know the urban side of this bargain. My guess is that in small towns and rural areas it's probably white kids, and again many Latin-American immigrants, whose families aren't well off who enlist for education and employment. The family farm largely disappeared in the US during the 1970s. We have huge regional high schools serving depopulated areas that kids are bused to. If you remember the 2000 election, these areas are the "red" states on the electoral map that voted for Bush.

The draft fell disproportionately on working class and minority kids because the main exemption to the draft was for higher education. Lo and behold, the professional army falls mainly to minorities and kids from immigrant and working class/working poor families because it offers education.

I'm not sure about re-instituting the draft. I know there is talk about it as a way to make the US government, which is the military superpower in the world, more responsive. It does focus the mind about any war if it's going to be your kid, or if it's you who is going to be drafted to fight it. (The Senate and the House might not be let off the hook so easily if there were a draft.) There is an attitude of respect given to young professional soldiers, but also a quiet thought that each of them knew what might be asked when they entered into the "bargain" so no opposition is tolerated and no consideration is given. (That was the point.)

I have no idea who it is that doesn't "support the troops" or who wants them to be hurt, given the factors at work in getting them to enlist and the sectors of the society they come from. So I think the chant, "Support the troops--Bring them home" is a good one. And, I'm listening to people's debates and comments about the draft.



Lily
Chicago, IL, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 05:58:44 PM

Thank you, everybody, for your views. It's educational. Today was interesting. This morning, I hiked down to the post office with more postcards in my hot little hand. I'll admit that they were rather strongly worded--the phrase, "Home of Depraved," was included along with a statement about the right to free speech. These were addressed to friends and they were mostly for MY BENEFIT--venting. As I was walking, I was thinking about what sort of response I really hoped to elicit with the sign I needed to make for the afternoon's peace rally. There was pul-lenty of impetus for saying something very angy(most having to do with George Bush) but all I could see was how they would just make for more anger. About halfway home (just after I found the perfect cardboard for my sign) the phrase, "Pray for Peace," came to me. So, I painted "MOM SAYS PRAY FOR PEACE" in great big letters and headed back downtown. I am so glad that was the sign I was carrying. Neither side was put off by it. I mean EVERYBODY came up to talk. And I think I actually sowed some seeds for peace on both sides [some of us peaceniks--not me--had pretty nasty responses to being flipped off by people driving by in cars]. It was a very good day. I know I'm rambling again; I'm very tired. This is just my thank you message to "the ethers" for the inspiration to think first and paint second. This war is making me a much better witness for peace.
Carolyn, dear Carolyn
Colorado, USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 05:25:51 PM

"Is saying “Vive la France” mindless?" - I would not profess to say if it is mindless, but it is something I would never say. I admire good people of all nationalities. I despise selfish people of all nationalities. I simply don't understand what 'vive la France' or 'God bless America' or 'God save the Queen' or 'Deutchland uber alles' mean. If patriotism means "let's hold high the values we believe in", then great. If it means "we're superior to all these damn foreigners", then not so great. What you think of patriotism is basically what your experience and study of history tells you it means... Make of it what you like, everybody :)

And now definitely bedtime...
GML
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:46:35 PM

I just came across this site, and I would like to thank all of you who posted your opinions. Whether I agree with them or not, the majority are intelligent, educated views, free from the ubiquitous logical fallacies I find in so many editorials on this subject. Thank you.

First of all, I am an American. I’m grateful to be an American. I can’t think of a country that would have any more liberty to offer me than the USA. I realize that America has numerous problems, and certain Americans self-centeredly step on the toes of other nations. But I remain unashamed of calling myself American, because I have yet to find a country that HASN’T done that at one point or another. (If you find one, let me know.) I resent all the spouting off on the “arrogant Americans”. Labeling the lot of us “arrogant” is hypocritical. When someone one generalizes like that they are assuming the right to judge an entire nation, which is arrogant in and of itself; they are thereby committing the same crime they are accusing America of.

Saddam Hussein is a dangerous man. He was supposedly “elected” by 100% of the country. Please. No politician, especially Hussein, is going to be elected by all of the people. 100% of the population voted for him under peril of death. It is true that many Iraqi people hate America, and aren’t happy with the “regime change”. Saddam does have many supporters, but so did Adolf Hitler. Iraq is a country without democracy, and a treacherous leader is in power who openly laughs in the face of the UN. Something must change. Perhaps war is not the way to do it. I am not pro-war, I am pro-democracy and therefore anti-Saddam Hussein.

I fail to see how Britain being in control of Iraqi oil fields makes this a war about oil. When Hussein invaded Kuwait (remember that?) and lost, he set the oil fields on fire. He basically said “Fine. If I don’t get the oil, you don’t either.” If he loses now, and it is likely he will, it is not a stretch to say that he would do the same thing. Britain is not going to keep the wells, they will be returned to the Iraqi people for their profit at fair market prices. I don’t buy the war about oil business. There is evidence to support that view, but name me a war that didn’t have economic undertones. (Again, if you find one, let me know.)

I am not pro-war. The fact that I am American does not mean that I am a bloodthirsty capitalist who is blind to the world around me. I am sixteen years old. The events that are going on directly affect me, and will shape the world I have to raise my children in. And I do not want Saddam Hussein to be part of that world. Leaving him in power to prevent a war is madness. He will cause another war of his own aggression sooner or later, just as he has in the past. If the UN were left to rule the world, there would be no peace. I doubt they would have acted against Hitler just as they aren’t acting against Saddam, placing their own interests over the interests of the minorities that were and are being wiped out in both cases. No, I don’t want war. But the consequences of inaction right now are more dangerous than a war.

I again thank you all for your opinions, and the site managers for this forum. It was getting hostile on the AR guestbook when this was brought up!! May God or Allah or whoever you believe in bless the world so that we can all, someday, live in peace with no dictators, war, or reckless love of money. Pax vobiscum.
rickfan888
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:46:13 PM

"anti-war protests have saved lives already": I'm please to hear it. Some Polititians listen us, do care about our protest? Here in Paris there was a lot of people from different countries, even USA, marching together in the sound of John Lennon's voice. We did really feel his words for the first time and all sang together and shared this moment. I really hope our protest will save even just one life, it would always be worth it.
Nathalie
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:35:59 PM

"anti-war protests have saved lives already": I'm please to hear it. Some Polititians listen us, do care about our protest? Here in Paris there was a lot of people from different countries, even USA, marching together in the sound of John Lennon's voice. We did really feel his words for the first time and all sang together and shared this moment. I really hope our protest will save even just one life, it would always be worth it.
Nathalie
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:34:27 PM

“T”- I respect your opinion, and you have the right to say or not say the pledge. I do not agree with what you say about the “mindless patriotic songs” though. Some people do sing them unthinkingly, and I find that objectionable, but many songs are heartfelt compositions of gratitude for a wonderful land. They are no different from the songs of Britain or Germany or France. Is saying “Vive la France” mindless? There is nothing wrong with being patriotic if you are sincere. I happily display my flag because the blood of thousands was shed to give me the right to do so. It is not “small, pitiful thinking”, I displayed it before September 11th, and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. What is pitiful is when people think that America is above everyone else because we have so much. But I remind you that America does not have a monopoly on ethnocentricity or arrogance. Yes, there are many people who wave the flag because it has become trendy to do so, but they do not constitute the whole of flag-wavers.

As for the people who cannot find other countries on a map, that has nothing to do with their political views. I don’t condone their ignorance, and I might call into question their intelligence; but their lack of geographical skills does not make their opinions invalid.

To all, it is easy to lump Americans into one big pompous anti-Iraqi lot, just as it is easy to lump the French into one big snooty anti-American lot, but it doesn’t make either true or right. If you disagree with Bush, disagree with him ‘till hell freezes over and then give it a go on the ice, but don’t trivialize the feelings of many good people who love their countries.
Observer
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:05:50 PM

"If only they would show as much passion and interest in reaching out to the Arab community here, the literal brothers of those people we are bombing. They need everyone's love and support more than ever now."

Indeed, you are quite right. And you know (I mean this), this is what I really enjoyed about the peace marches here in England (the two of them I took part in anyway): White (Christians or not) and dark-skinned people (muslim or not) talking to each other as they have never done before. It is not new to me as France has a huge percentage of muslim people and I was brought up with them - but to see, here in England, the usual barriers and fears gone, for one afternoon... It was magic. I know, I know, how long will it last? But it was a positive step. No doubt the Iraqi people will benefit from this bloody war in the long term and I understand the people you are describing. But they would have benefitted so much more from a less violent, less profitable and less destructive intervention...

GML
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 04:00:47 PM

.... Collateral Damage III part two, sorry. Then came Oliver Cotton who read us something written by John Cleese (yes, THE John Cleese) about the axes of evil. No, not the axIs of evil, but the axEs of evil (plural), all of them. You see, Lybia and Syria and North Korea were apparenlty a bit miffed that they were excluded from the one and original Axis of Evil (which can only contain three countries apparently). The hilarious piece left us in no doubt as to which axis each country belongs. As far as I remember, the afore-mentioned belonged to the Axis of Occasianally Evil; the Russians belong to the Axis of Not So Much Evil as Generally Disagreeable and the Canadians (Hi Julia!;) to the Axis of the Would be Quite Nice Really If They Didn't Have These Nasty Thoughts About America.

Then came Tony Harrison (THE) with two poems he (alas) wrote at the time of the first Gulf War. One was on the theme of these confused Iraqi cockrels who sang their hearts out thinking dawn was there when in fact the burning oil wells and explosions dyed the sky orange around 3am and mimicked a sick version of dawn light ("Illumination" it was called, I think). Also the Cormoran-motif embellished calligraphy in the Bible brutally meeting the oil-soaked and dying cormoran of our time. And next a poem written as an imaginary conversation between a journalist and the black-faced, charred Iraqi soldier he saw sitting at the back of a fleeing truck once. *Cold Coming* it was called, the conversation centering on the fact American soldiers leave their sperm and potential descendence in liquid nitrogen before leaving to war. No, Tony Harrison's poetry is not for the faint-hearted. And while it's as crafted as anything you've read, it's also built on the line of an odyssey, so we were running a litle overtime when Kevin day was introduced, after other artists.

I love Kevin Day because he was the first guy who had the courage to say something positive about the French (a certain career-suicidal move in Britain!). Since Bush and Blair accused French politicians of starting this war while they were really trying to stop it happening, he said, it makes sense to assume that when Bush wrecked the Kyoto treaty, he was really trying to get his Greenpeace membership :). He also enlightened us on these smart bombs we've read about and who being so clever surely should refuse to be dropped, thus showing they have more of a conscience than our leaders. None the least as all this bombing of mountain caves aimed at killing terrorists is, well, creating more caves, isn't it? ;) OK, there was more... and then he introduced the one and only JUDI DENCH!

.. who read us two short pieces in her inimitable voice. One was about a 'Conscience Objector'... who made his commitment to the authorities clear with the words "I shall die, but that is all I shall do for them" - and a letter found in the pocket of a soldier who was killed in 1915 (grandfather of friends, I think) which was a moving and poetic report of his fate "Oh, forward still.. and meeting the sun half-way..."

A bit over schedule came Corin Redgrave again, to remind us that the anti-war protests have saved lives already (politicians are showing un-characteristic concern for civilian lives following the strength of the protest and the looming next elections) and to encourage us to join the national demonstration the next day. Then the human lady from Palestine and Manchester sang us out. And anybody who can make a bunch of English people sing in Arab clearly has secret powers.

THE END.(Don't you wish you had been there?;) Sara, were you?

GML
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 03:40:59 PM

Oh, I do apologise if I came off as "defensive." I was just generally venting my frustration at what the vast majority of the "committed to one view" people in my life have said, and continue to say, about my ambivalence.

My daily joke to myself (and it helps, somewhat, to keep my spirits up) is that humans have always been quite fond of "bashing the uncommitted guy." And the very favorite accusation, it seems to me, is accusing the person of ignorance or laziness. I've heard it all before.

Also, I do tend to get rather passionate about these people I know and how they have been/are being affected by this. As I said earlier, all it takes is someone putting a face to it, and when those faces belong to people you love and you know, well, that's very, very emotionally charged.

All these people who are marching in D.C. today, hundreds and hundreds of them, claiming to want peace and to protect the Iraqi citizens. If only they would show as much passion and interest in reaching out to the Arab community here, the literal brothers of those people we are bombing. They need everyone's love and support more than ever now.
Jen
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 02:45:16 PM

And now a short report on Collateral Damage III if this is OK.

I got to the National just before the event started this time, and that was a mistake: it was so packed, I had to crush a few people to death under my feet to get to the one free spot on the floor which looked just about my bum size. Once settled there, I spotted Corin Redgrave (the evil event organiser) and Bill Nighy (the third pillar). (There are several pillars supporting Collateral Damage time in the Lyttleton Circle foyer. Two of them are made of stone, are thin and wide and designed for maximum view-blocking. The third one is called Bill Nighy, rather attracts the view and is apparently not made of stone since he's such a regular;)

Corin Redgrave started the evening by sending his and our love to the people in Iraq and introduced a great artist of Palestinian descent and born in Manchester, who describes her nationality as humanity-ish-ian and whose name I won't even ridicule myself trying to spell correctly. She sang us a (Lebanese?) lament. The lament was that of a woman in a cemetery visiting the grave of her loved ones. In it she saw not death and grieving but... spring and hope. Amazing voice, the sort you don't want to stop, ever.

She then introduced Bill Nighy, who read a poem written by Harold Pinter, called something like (Iraqi) 'Weather Forecast - 19 March 2003'. It was a bit longer than the last one (poem, see report on CDI) and ended up with the words 'this will be the last forecast'.

Then came Gordon Case with (I think, hang on, this was yesterday and a lot happened since) a reading from Martin Luther King: ("Somehow this madness must cease")

Then came Harriet Walter and David Calder who read several fact sheets and personal testimonials from Bagdhad. These included some figures: the amount of medical and clean water extracting equipment being blocked by American-led UN sanctions, hundreds of thousands of child-vaccines being blocked in case the virulence-atttenuated bugs in them might be cultured and re-virulenced and loaded into missile heads (a scientific and technological feat that would be!!!) - and the resignation and wounded pride of the Iraqi people reduced to begging from Westerners for a living...

Oops, instant messager coming up... more in a minute...

GML
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 02:41:09 PM

Home at last! Gaye, my grovelling apologies for mispelling your name and -far worse- mistaking you for an American! *ducks and runs for her life* ;) - In my defence (or 'defense'? Forgive this confused French person), I was posting from a cybercafé which charges you a month's salary per minute so you tend to read and type fast. Now I still can't see the link between the despicable French nuclear testing record and their present position on the war in Iraq, but I am happy to be enlightened. Sincerely, I come here to learn from other people as much as to express myself.

Jen, I thanked you for your reports on Arab-American opinion in your neck of the woods and gave you a report on their opinion here. I explained why I was sure of my position after you explained why you weren't sure what to think. Dee mentioned that some people are sticking their heads in the sand and that certainly is a fact... believe me, I work with some of these guys, they won't even admit there's a war on. Why you should feel insulted totally escapes me though, since the mere fact you are here shows you have given this whole sorry affair 10 times more thinking than the average person. I have read all the recent posts and really can't see an aggressive one, only defensive ones. Please let's keep this page as friendly as it has been so far. I know these are hard times, I find it hard to cope with my own anger. But this anger is only directed at the people who don't care and at the people who can't think. None of these have shown up here as far as I can see.

GML
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 01:36:33 PM

I just went back from a demonstration in Paris today (I'm standing at your side GML !). It true that perhaps J. Chirac has some interest to stand by his conviction but for once his interest is coming with the global interest. My heart is heavy at the thought of not being listening... My heart is heavy knowing that this war already have killed too many people unecesseraly and will kill many other. I feel guilty for my country to have fail it pursuie. Now we must think of the afterwar and its consequences... "I weep for my Country" and I cry for the Iraqui people. Think about this: if they were your family, if war sat in your own country...
Nathalie
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 12:08:45 PM

Yes, even though I'm ambivalent, I'm certainly not putting my head in the sand. I've been watching the progress of this event on several cable TV stations day and night, and reading my local Newspaper each morning.

My point about the French nuclear testings was that they were close to my back-yard, which by the way is Australia - I'm Australian, not American. It would be preferrable for countries to test their nuclear weapons in their own back-yard, not near mine.

And my name is not Gayle, it's Gaye. I understand it's easy to get things wrong occasionally.
GAYE
Australia, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 11:43:26 AM

"I'd just like to say that not ALL of the 'ambivalent' prefer sticking their heads in the sand as opposed to opening their eyes."

Bravo, Christine! I totally agree with you!

I get so fed up with the condescending attitude I get from people who know that they know that they know. Good for you! But please don't insult the rest of us, for whom life is complicated and NOT black and white.

My head is most definitely NOT in the sand. If ambivalence equals ignorance to you, then that's sad indeed.

And I wanted to clarify something: I have had a longstanding relationship with these people I have mentioned. We are friends both in and out of church. I just have never been courageous enough to broach this subject with them before. No one has. That is sad, considering what they have had to face alone, without hardly any support from the non-Arab American population.

I now understand the personal attacks they have endured since 9/11. Attacks on their businesses, on their homes, on their CHILDREN. And yet they stay here, in the U.S.? Why? Would YOU?

Yes, they are people first. But they are people who want to go home to their families. They are people who are watched wherever they go in public, because "they might be terrorists." One of their son's nicknames at school is S.B. (for "Suicide Bomber"). Guess what? I never would have found that out if I hadn't opened up a dialogue with them on this subject. Imagine a ten-year-old boy having to bear the weight of something like that every single day? When someone puts a face on it, it is jolting.

I was in no way being opportunistic in discussing this with them. I love them, and I am naturally concerned with what concerns them. That is how friends are to each other.

And because they are my friends and they saw genuine interest and concern from me, they invited me--and I did accept--to two of their community meetings (for which there were flyers and such all over the community). Here's what I saw there: Arab-Americans of many faiths (Muslim, Hindu, Christian, agnostic, atheists) meeting to discuss how to address the hatred they were facing here, how to help their families back in Iraq and Iran, and how to educate their children in the wake of 9/11. They were lively meetings, let me tell you. My one friend had to translate a lot of what was said to me, because a lot of it was spoken in Arabic.

There were only about ten other people there who weren't of Arab descent. Sad, indeed. So many people out there claiming to care so much about these people, and only ten show up. Shameful.

It wasn't a "We worship the U.S.A." rally, either. There were some real truths spoken there. But I got a chance to see the one thing that brought these people of various faiths together: A common love for their homeland, a common wish to see their families once more. They were all very passionate in expressing how they felt was best to do this, but trust me, no one seemed cowed by any fear of Big Brother (despite that fact that SEVERAL had been stopped on a frequent basis by local police, just because of their ethnicity). They did not appear to be afraid of the U.S. government. They faced CERTAIN DEATH for speaking out in Iraq and Iran. What could be worse than that?

So I will admit that my experience with the Arab-American community here has affected my views on this war. How could it not? After all, it affects them more than it affects any of the rest of us. We can sit and debate back and forth all day long until we pass out from exhaustion, but at the end of the day, it is THEIR families who are suffering over there, and it is THEIR country that is being bombed into smithereens. If they tell me that they believe it is worth it--me, who has never been there and probably will never get the opportunity--how can I help but stop and ask myself, WHY?

How can I help but admit that this is something that is so much bigger than me and what I think?

How can I help but stand in the middle?
Jen
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 11:19:01 AM

Christine--I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Dee
- Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 10:42:11 AM

I'd just like to say that not ALL of the "ambivalent" prefer sticking their heads in the sand as opposed to opening their eyes. I watch, read and listen to the news quite a lot, from more than one source. The trouble comes from not knowing what is true and what is a lie (intentional or unintentional). I am willing to consider the notion that not everything I WANT to believe is true, really is the truth. Frankly the entire world of politics (right- and left-wing) is a stinking cesspool of lies, disinformation and special interests.
Christine
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 09:29:35 AM

Posters might wish to visit the BBC link provided by Claire above. It is fairly unbiased reporting. There is an excellent page too with comments from our friends in the Middle East, some for and some against this military action: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2875331.stm
Dee
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 08:50:22 AM

One comment about the Arab-Americans to whom Jen has been speaking. There is currently in force "Operation Liberty Shield" which is a concerted effort by the Bush Administration to round up Arab-Americans to detain and question them about terrorist connections--simply by virtue of their ethnic background (since when does liberty = arrest???). (Let us recall WWII and the Japanese internment camps.) Do you think that any of these people believe it is wise to speak their mind at this time? I heartily doubt it. I work with an Irani-born woman (whom I do not look at as an interesting species to question about her attitude towards Americans or this war--I have avoided bringing up the topic because, frankly, she is simply a woman and a friend in my eyes). Nonetheless, she brought up the subject yesterday, in confidence mind you, and said she was very afraid--having been in Iran during war when she was a child. She has no respect for this government or the Iraqi government, but she particulary hates the military action. She is also afraid of what will happen to her here because she is of Irani descent. She is afraid of being subject to prejudice and hate and she is afraid of the war coming to our soil. I drone on. My point is that Arab-Americans must watch what they say or for heavens sake, they might be arrested for speaking their mind. (Doesn't sound like a country that was founded on the notion of freedom of speech does it?) Okay. Just my opinion Okay???
Dee
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 08:38:31 AM

Thank you GML, for your reports and your efforts. It has been difficult for me to watch or listen to any news here because I have a visitor who is one of the "ambivalent" (and prefers sticking his head in the sand to opening his eyes). Every time I turn on the news, he wants to have a conversation or go someplace--you are presently my only source of info. I have also been a bit overwhelmed by some of the recent posts here, and I heartily appreciate your taking time out from your schedule to write! --And be careful out there!!
Dee
USA, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 08:23:05 AM

Spot on,GML. The first victims of this violent show of force will be innocent Iraqis, but the next victims will br the American public. Plundered pockets and increased terrorism. The only people to profit from this war as it is will be Bush and his rich friends. The Iraqis could have been helped by the international community at a lesser cost to humanity.
American expatriate
UK, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 02:50:21 AM

Ah, I've got 5 minutes left on my credit,quick, quick ;): Gayle, I really should have emphasized a little more that I have no more respect for the French politicians than for any others. I didn't vote for Chirac. But right now they are taking the right position, are being shamefully bashed for it, with absolute lies being uttered by Bush and Blair against them, and they will of course suffer economically from the new US/UK-installed 'Iraqi' regime, which will obviously be encouraged to make oil more expensive for some people than for some others... ;) - What *I* want is politicians prepared to encourage finance ecological sources of energy so we stop being so dependent on oil. Of course the big oil companies (The Bush family fortune is based on oil, btw) ensure that polititians do *not* do that.
GML
London, - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 01:44:30 AM

From your correspondent in London... ;) I went to Collateral Damage III yesterday and the foyer was absolutely *packed*. At least 5 times as many people as at CDI. They could not have taken any more people in. If these events go on they might have to find another venue I guess. I'll report when I'm back home but for now it's Saturday morning, I have a couple of hours to kill before making my way to the embankment for the national demonstration, so here I am, at Victoria's cyber cafe. Seems I logged in just in time to answer a couple of posts:

Jen, thanks for the info about what the American-Arab people who go to your church think. It is very interesting as here the Muslim associations (including of course many refugees from the region under attack) have given clear statesments about being against Saddam, but also about being very much against this unecessarily violent war and show of force. They have demonstrated in their thousands... Which takes me to Gayle's post: Gayle, I assure you I normally can see both sides of any questions - to a fault, in fact, as I often find it hard to side with anybody, stick to a political party, etc because of that. In that case, I am indeed absolutely sure, and it is not a coincidence that so many people (biggest antiwar demonstrations ever in London and in the world) should be as well: what is going on is all too obvious. I have already given my arguments: Saddam could have been removed peacefully through a constructive international effort. Instead Iraq is being demolished. The American taxpayer is footing the bill and the money (*your* money) is going straight into the weapon lobbies' pockets. When the war is over, the almightly USA in its immense generosity will 'reconstruct' Iraq. In other words, *your* taxpayer's money will go straight into Bush and Cheney's friends' big companies (reconstruction contracts). That, Gayle, is the only reason I can possibly think of for demolishing Iraq.

As for the regime itself -and change could have been achieved through the UN so all talk of Saddam's horrors are irrelevant to *how* this war is being conducted- be sure that it will be replaced by a regime which will be very, very grateful to the American people for saving them and 'reconstructing' Iraq. And be sure that this gratitude will be expressed in terms of cheap oil for their new American friends. What choice will they have? And the message will be heard loud and clear throughout the Middle-East: Dicators dear, do what you like to your people, but be very generous to us with your oil or....

As regards the French position, if opposing the war is in their interest, then it just so happens that doing the right thing coincides with their interest. The fact that opposing this non-UN approved war is in their interest does not invalidate the fact that this war is wrong. And for information, the French did say they would finance and back and take part in military action if and when necessary, after UN approval. It appears Bush wanted to get there first, though.

As for French past nuclear tests etc, I'm afraid I cannot see the relevance here. I am a member of Greenpeace and have always opposed them but surely you realize that all nuclear powers do these tests. The USA have done them and thousands of their own people were unwitting guinea pigs. Russia has too. Environmental disasters. Have you (has anybody) heard about this leaked document from the Pentagon about using short-range underground nuclear bombs to destroy Saddam's chemicals? The Pentagon has admitted to it.

Anyway, speak to you all more later :)

GML
London (today), - Saturday, March 22nd 2003 - 01:33:11 AM

It must be so good to have such firm and definite opinions, like GML has, for example. To be so sure in your mind that what you think is correct.

I'm ambivalent in my thinking. War is mostly a terrible, unnecessary thing, and I wouldn't want my children involved in fighting, but I'm a conservative person, and so far I've agreed with a lot of things our Prime Minister has said.

I think I must be alone on this board (but I haven't read everyone's posts). Does anyone AT ALL think it was necessary to go to war? There are quite a few countries alligned with the USA. France is not popular with Australians as the French appear arrogant (and their nuclear explosions were quite close here a few years ago.) I read that they are acting out of their own interests here, as well, with oil being mentioned a few times.

I also read an article in our newspaper by a young person who is dead-set against this war. She was involved in a women's group which met with a lot of Iraqi women, who all agreed that this war was vital to save their people. The journalist was astounded, but had to report their feelings. I think it made her sit up and think.

Anyway, I hope it's over soon, with a minimum number of casualties. But I don't think it will stop terrorist attacks happening in the future.
Gaye
Australia, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 09:32:33 PM

Anne, I would love to meet you, even if only for a brief moment--I'm very interested to know my fellow AR-ers! Email if you like! How cool.
Dee , <deebartholomew42@yahoo.com>
- Friday, March 21st 2003 - 09:18:29 PM

Dee, I humbly accept the olive branch. I'll be in the Pasadena area (Alhambra, actually) for the next week and am glad I am not entering enemy territory. Please don't think I have an anti-lawyer attitude - my family expected me to follow my illustrious ancestors to Harvard Law School and they still haven't forgiven me for ditching their plans, so it's just kind of a sore spot, I guess. All is forgiven. I will try to chill out. The French wine is helping.
Anne
- Friday, March 21st 2003 - 09:04:23 PM

Well, I have been to a meeting of the U.N. Security Council, and had my own personal Collateral Damage meeting with AR, and I have been convinced to apologize, truly, madly and deeply to Anne. Forgive me Anne, while you made the correct decision after graduation, I didn't. I argue for a living, and sometimes even I get on my nerves. You are right that the Constitution does not literally forbid the separation of C&S, but the "wall of separation" metaphor you mention has not been accepted by the courts. Indeed, the religion problem is before the courts often, because it is always lurking about in the form of Christmas Creches, school programs, etc., etc., that are funded by Christian and non-Christian taxpayers--and the non-Christian taxpayers don't like it. The courts, however, have interpreted the Establishment Clause to the best of their ability under its somewhat purposeful (yet ambiguous) language to pretty much forbid our government from making any laws respecting the establishment of religion or laws prohibiting religion. Yes, the courts have come up with a test to measure whether the gov't. has overstepped its bounds. (To date, however, I do not think anyone has tested whether Congress can have a chaplain on site--I am ignorant of this.)

Let's see, what did old Justice Burger have to say on the matter . . . "The language of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment is at best opaque, particularly when compared with other portions of the Amendment. Its authors did not simply prohibit the establishment of a state church or a state religion, an area history shows they regarded as very important and fraught with great dangers. Instead they commanded that there should be "no law respecting an establishment of religion." A law may be one "respecting" the forbidden objective while falling short of its total realization. A law "respecting" the proscribed result, that is, the establishment of religion, is not always easily identifiable as one violative of the Clause. A given law might not establish a state religion but nevertheless be one "respecting" that end in the sense of being a step that could lead to such establishment and hence offend the First Amendment.
In the absence of precisely stated constitutional prohibitions, we must draw lines with reference to the three main evils against which the Establishment Clause was intended to afford protection: "sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity." (Citation omitted).
Every analysis in this area must begin with consideration of the cumulative criteria developed by the Court over many years. Three such tests may be gleaned from our cases. First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion (citations omitted), finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion." (Citation omitted.)

Blah, blah, blah. I am boring myself to death. Can I say what I am proud of? I am really proud that our Founding Fathers had the wisdom and foresight to produce a document with the hope of providing a nation where we could all be free--to do and say what we like without the fear of reprisal from the government. Forgive me Anne.

Dee
USA, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 06:35:09 PM

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed very much reading all of these thoughtful posts. I find myself very conflicted and scared by the road we are traveling down with this war. I agree that this has more to do with oil and distracting the american people from our rapidly deteriorating economy than it does about getting rid of Saddam who hasn't been a focus of attention since Bush Sr. was in office. While we initially had the support of many countries post-911 when the purpose of our actions was to help in eradicating terrorism worldwide, I don't really see how this act is going to get us anywhere (except serving to alienate our allies). I'm very afraid that we are now going to see an increase in terrorist attacks on our country as a direct result of our invasion of Iraq. I support the men and women who are carrying out their duties in the armed forces, but I don't support Bush. "Proud to be an american", but not proud of our administration right now.
saturnine
usa, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 05:47:08 PM

Bettina - I am so sorry about this anti-French attitude. I wish I had the authority to apologize for the nastiness of my fellow Americans. The French have been our loyal allies for so many years I find it absurd that some vocal people in our country would want to jeopardize that relationship with trash-talk. I am sure you realize that the sentiment is not universal. There was a humorous but thought-provoking bit on the radio this weekend, I think it was on the Rewind show on NPR, that said that we are just bashing the French because it is no longer acceptable to pick on New Yorkers - and in the view of many Americans outside of New York, the two groups have much in common. Personally, I think that when this war is over (and it does appear that it will be over fairly soon), Americans will quickly forget that they were ever angry with France. As a nation, we have a very short memory, and if I may say so, the recall abilities of Republican members of Congress seem especially limited. Now, I feel a little bad about this next bit after your nice comments about this polite board, but...

Dee, I haven't posted since yesterday because my feelings were hurt and I got mad. So (pause while I put my soapbox up on my high horse) I have to tell you that I certainly have read the Consititution, in fact I read it quite a lot in my con law classes at Berkeley back in the days when I thought I was headed toward law school (thankfully I got over that notion). Since becoming a librarian I've read it some more, as I get particularly riled about censorship (incidentally, for the record, there were two more graduate degrees in between Berkeley and the library degree - I have spent most of my the last 25 years at one university or another). Anyway, the Constitution itself doesn't specifically mention a separation of church and state - all it says that no religious test can be required for office. Of course, the first amendment does address religion, and what it says is that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." So of course courts continue to debate exactly what the framers meant by and how we should interpret those 16 words - "respecting," "establishment," "religion," and "thereof" seem to get exercised the most. It is not even agreed on by all scholars that the framers ever intended a true separation of church and state the way most of us think of it - there is a book called Separation of Church and State by a guy named Hamburger that puts forth an argument that the "wall of separation" idea grew out of 19th century anti-Catholicism (the guy is not a kook; he's not even from the vowel states - he's a professor at University of Chicago and the book is published by Harvard University Press). If I am ignorant for mentioning the "alleged" separation of church and state, at least I am in well-educated company. For the record, I would like to see all mention of God removed from schools, public buildings, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the public comments of our elected officials - but I recognize that it's not about what I would like.

BTW, I also know how "in God we trust" wound up on our money, but that is probably too off-topic for even this off-topic board.

So now that I have let off some steam I will have to decide whether I want to submit this and risk incurring the wrath of Dee - not to mention Republican congresspersons, lawyers, vowel-state residents, the religious Right, and maybe New Yorkers. I'm really just a mild-mannered librarian. I think I will pour a glass of French wine, listen to war reportage on my public radio station, and hope that Alan Rickman shows up at my door with some licorice for me.
Anne
- Friday, March 21st 2003 - 05:45:20 PM

What a wonderful forum that is! I'm amazed to find a place where people are able to discuss the Iraq war and politics in general without insulting each other, as it often is the case on the internet.

I'm German but live in France since a very long time, and I feel rather comfortable with the governments of both countries right now who reject this war. But what makes me really sad is to see all this French bashing in the USA. I know that not all US citizens think like that, but too often the propaganda of the Bush administration works well and people believe that France let down the Americans or - even worse - is responsible for the war. We discuss this a lot between neighbours and friends, and people here around me are really shocked by this attitude.

Don't get me wrong. I still love America and I know a lot of people there who don't follow Bush's lead. But honestly, I would feel uncomfortable to visit the USA right now or to send my daughter to a French-American school over there, a project we had planned since a few years now.
Bettina , <bettina.br@wanadoo.fr>
Marseillan, France, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 04:45:38 PM

Thanks for your latest comments, Jen. I very much appreciated your balanced views. I have great sympathy and admiration for those Americans who are not convinced that this is a 'needed' war. I was back in England on a visit in 1982 when the UK navy was sailing to the Falklands War. I come from an army background and my family were totally gung-ho in support of Maggie Thatcher's war to get re-elected. Which is basically what it was - she had been trailing badly in the polls and ended up winning the election. I couldn't for the life of me see why the UK would have any interest or right, apart from an obscure piece of history, in a windswept island the south end of the Atlantic. This was not a popular view with my family.

On a different note. Last night I was at a taping of the Royal Canadian Air Farce, a topical comedy show which airs tonight. Those who can receive CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) might want to watch - there is a very funny skit on 'freedom fries'. It is on at 8 0'clock, repeated on Monday at 7.
Gail , <gailr97@yahoo.com>
Canada, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 04:17:36 PM

Mortianna, I heartily agree with your comments re: Rickmania. I too, love having the opportunity to read well-balanced (all right, sometimes not so well-balanced!), well-argued discussions on every topic. It's the main reason I keep coming back, even when my AR passion wears off (and sometimes it does). I think intelligence is vital.

So this war is quickly becoming bigger: Turkey's moved in without US consent. I sense some Kurdish land-related scuffles in the near future!

PS: Is anyone else watching CNN's coverage reminded of their OJ Simpson trial coverage? I hate how thay keep saying out loud what everyone can see with their own two eyes. eg: "And now we see the camera moving left... We see it moving right... There's a tank! And some camels!" and so on...
Julia
Calgary Canada, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 04:07:17 PM

Jen and "T", just wanted to say that I loved both your posts. (I just got kicked off AOL while typing this... talk about paranoia.) So I'll try again. Jen, I understand and share your confusion about this war. It would be easier, maybe, to be gung-ho for one side or the other, but I find it difficult not to see both sides of the issue. For the record, though, I am NOT a supporter of G.W., never have been and never will be.

"T", do you really consider a population of 350,000 to be a "relatively small town" or was that a typo? The city I live in is about one-tenth that size. Lots of flags flying on cars here,too... what's the point of that? Do they think we need to be reminded of what country we're in? I am not PROUD to be American, but I am (usually) grateful to have been born here, considering there are much worse places to live. I am sometimes embarassed to be American, as well. For a trivial example, when groups of people start that ridiculous "U-S-A! U-S-A!" chant as if they were at a sporting event.

One last thing: how many people here voted for Ralph Nader in the last presidential election? (I didn't.) Next time, please don't throw away your vote on someone who has no real chance of being elected. I pray that the Democrats can come up with a viable candidate. If you want Bush OUT, please make your vote count. That goes for you too, Michael Moore, ya big lovable lug.
Christine
USA, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 02:53:42 PM

Thank you, Gail and GML, for answering my post!

Of course, I do understand that the news pieces I mentioned are chosen by corporate-owned media companies, the bulk of whom have backed this whole-heartedly from the beginning. As I said in my last post, we have a very large Arab-American population in this area, and since 9/11 I have really tried to talk to as many as I could and really listen to what they were saying and get to know them. They are kind and funny. And, for the most part, are open about their experiences in their home countries. There has been so little dialogue between PEOPLE, I feel. I want to know what the people in these countries are thinking.

We have a few Arab-Americans attending my church (one of the few churches in this area that actually WELCOMES people from the Middle East, the rest exhibiting shameful prejudice), who, pleased that a middle-class American woman is taking any interest whatsoever in their opinions (most Americans here only tolerate them), have kindly bombarded me with invitations to community meetings, English translations of Arabic flyers and newspapers, and have taken time to talk to me about their experiences in Iraq AND Iran. It is interesting how many of them have the same story to tell. Atrocities committed against them or their immediate family members. They will show you their missing hands, feet, their terrible scars. They speak about it like it is just common and expected. It makes you sick to your stomach, but you HAVE to listen. They are always gracious and appreciative of my wanting to know more (which makes me feel so guilty that I haven't done this before now). And they never fail to mention how grateful they are to have had a place to flee from the wrath of Saddam. When I ask about the threats they receive from hateful people every day, they shrug their shoulders as if it is part and parcel of life for them. It is tragic, really, yet you just have to honor and respect them. Most of us will never in our lives know that kind of pain.

And, interestingly, they understand my confusion, my inability to side with either the pro- or anti-war people in a way that my fellow Americans on either side either cannot, or refuse, to do. For them it only matter that one is thinking, and caring. They really put me to shame.

So, my experience from what they have told me, from what I have seen and read, is that the majority of the Arab-American community in the D.C. area at least support this effort.

Those news pieces I saw yesterday just made me wonder if this was the case elsewhere in the U.S.

Yes, you are right, GML, they ARE safe here. It just moves me to hear them support this war, even when most of their families and friends are still IN Iraq, still in danger of Saddam, and NOW in danger of coalition missiles gone astray. It makes me wonder. What would be SO terrible that I would be willing to see my entire family put in danger of losing their lives? What is worth that?

RE: "Proud" to be an American . . . In my opinion, loving your country and narrow-mindedness do not necessarily have to go hand-in-hand. It doesn't mean that you think this nation is the greatest on Earth, or that you think we have done no wrong. I certainly don't feel that way at ALL. "To whom much is given, much is required." America certainly hasn't lived up to THAT. We have innumerable things to apologise for, to make right.

I am just happy to be able to do what I am doing. No restricted Internet access. I can hop on the Metro down into D.C. whenever I like and stand in front of the Capitol protesting anything I like. I can organize and attend meetings about anything I like. Sure, they may not put me on the news, but I don't do it for that reason anyway.

I, too, live in a tiny, rural farming town, and YES there is a LOT of patriotism here. American flags all over the place--they've been up since 9/11, and now, it seems, they're doubling in number. It would be so easy to call these people names ("stupid," "narrow-minded," "cattle," and whatnot), but what would that do to help them? It would keep us in our "groups." That's fine, indeed, if you like your group and you want to stay there.

Most of my family could fit in that group so many people are calling "narrow-minded idiots". They're busy people; they don't take the time they should to listen, read, pay attention to the world around them. But that is the case for the bulk of the world's population. Those of us who DO take the time, who feel it is important, instead of bandying names about, should just keep trying to talk to them. Whenever the opportunity arises, be there, be ready. Create opportunities, without chasing after people. Be "better" than them. If they yell, speak softly. If they call you names and curse at you, continue to treat them with respect. You will shock the hell out of them, I promise you that. Most of them will listen then, if not agree with you.

Embody peace if you love peace. If you want peace, speak it. To eveyone, not just those who share your worldview. Not just to those who deserve it.

I don't see too much of this going on, and I believe that is why so many people aren't listening at all.
Jen
MD, USA, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 09:34:29 AM

Tried to get on this board all last night and couldn't. Went to bed with strange thoughts of paranoia and conspiracies floating through my mind, ;-) but see this morning that things are OK (webtv hasn't taken up the business of censorship quite yet...).

This "proud to be an American" stuff has always just driven me nuts (this is not meant as a judgment against anyone here who is proud to be American or anything else, it's just that my own experience with this has not been positive for the most part). I think it's lovely when people can be proud of things, but all too often it ends up being an excuse for narrow-minded thinking. It's often confrontational, it often polarizes people, it's often used as a threat against those who make the mistake of having a different opinion, it's often the powerful tromping all over the less powerful. And frankly, there are too many things America has done in my lifetime that I'm just plain not even remotely proud of, and I've lived 1/2 a century.

I now teach at a small junior college in a relatively small (350,000) town where a lot of small-thinking people live. I've never been anywhere where there are so many people "proud to be an American." It's nauseating. Even the streets have little flags on them with signs that say, "This is an American city." I've been here 6 years and will never get used to it - it's surreal. Any and all large school functions where I work (like a graduation ceremony) begin with not only The Pledge, but the singing of several patriotic songs. These are required events if I want to keep my job (and I do like teaching), although I don't personally participate in the singing or "The Pledge" (I stand quietly - I will not put my hand over my heart and pledge anything to anybody that is not of my own doing - EVER). My point is, nothing seems to make these people feel more holy than singing a bunch of mindless patriotic songs. It's worse than Bible-thumping. I know there are sane people out there who are proud of their countries, no matter which ones they are, but those aren't most of the people I've run into. These are people who couldn't even find France or England on a world map if you plopped it in front of them (and I'm not kidding) - and in fact, a couple of years ago when I was sending a package to London, the woman in the post office (who was at least 30) looked at me and asked - and I'm not making this up, "Is London in France or England?" After I picked myself up off the floor, I said nicely, "Well, it's Paris that's in France and London that's in England," and she smiled shyly and said, "Well, I don't know where all those foreign (emphasis on foreign, at which point she waved her hand off into the distance) places are." Exactly. But I'll bet she was damn proud to be an American, voted for Bush, now hates the French, and still hasn't figured out where Iraq is.

Most of the time, if I think of it at all, I'm embarrassed to be American. But usually I just think of myself as a person, a human, not a patriot - of anything. I was born here, that's all, and I'd like the HUMANS in this country and everywhere else to learn how to get along so that we don't destroy all the life that's left. If I have to identify with anything, I'll pick nature - it doesn't believe in political boundaries. I'll pick the sky or some clouds or the smell of bark on a tree after it's rained...or maybe some beautiful music, or exquisite art, a poem, or maybe even just a good friend. :-)

Time for work now... it will be interesting to count how many times today I hear someone say "God bless America" or "pray for OUR boys," etc. Such small, pitiful thinking. Wars will never stop if people themselves don't learn to change their own thinking.

"T"
California, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 08:27:07 AM

From the BBC News website--"British troops say they have taken control of key oil installations on the . . . al-Faw peninsula." Hey, didn't George say this war wasn't about oil?
Dee
USA, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 07:01:56 AM

I could never understand what this "I'm proud to be an American" is all about. I thought it supremely stupid - how can you be proud of something, you have done nothing to acchieve? - and coming with a mindset as narrow as a piece of french (freedom?) toast.

Of course, it is really a different culture and we in Germany aren't supposed to be proud at all, but humble and still in shame about Hitler and the Third Reich - and I, born in 63, have always felt at least partly responsible for it and ashamed to be part of a people who could commit such atrocities.

The Americans saved us - the Germans who weren't all in for Hitler - from what we couldn't save ourselves from. They didn't do that out of sheer goodness of their hearts. They didn't want Germany to ever again be a nation that could and would wage war.

Well, they were successful. Thank you, America.

And I only now begin to understand the concept of being proud of belonging to a certain nation. I couldn't stand our Chancellor any more, I don't believe he is honest, and all politicians are playing more for show than for the interest of the people. But I really admire his steadfastness in this aspect. And it surely "is much more difficult to stand up against one's friends" - who surely have shown clearly that they weren't friends to begin with, but overprotective parents, turning into abusive bullies.

And I am proud to be a Rickman follower who seems to attract a large amount of thinking people. Having just come from a fan page for Jason Isaacs, where they evoked or really gave god's blessings to THEIR troups, it is a relief to come to this place to get the cobwebs of the mind blown away.

Thank you for this place, Claire, and thanks for all the reports which remind me that there is really not only Bush and his fellow citizens.
mortianna , <mortiannao2@yahoo.de>
- Friday, March 21st 2003 - 07:01:39 AM

Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
gISSING'S gIRL
UK, - Friday, March 21st 2003 - 01:27:56 AM

Jen, to answer the gist of your questions (I have no time to go into details, sorry):

"I have been watching various news reports all day, and the one thing I wanted to comment upon are the several pieces I have seen in which Iraqi-Americans speak their minds about this war. "

You have to realize that when you see interviews of people on TV, these interviews have been 'chosen' to give a particular impression. For each Iraqi-American who expressed him/herself in favour of this war, there might have been 100 of them who expressed themselves against, but these were not shown to you. I assure you that the Iraqi community here (as interviewd on Channel 4) is very much against. Blair read us a letter written to him by 30 pro-war Iraqis claiming to represent 300. Sure. There were thousands of them marching against the war few days later. And quite a few of the Iraqi signatories of that pro-war letter turned out to be from tribes backed by rival (not nice ones either) Iranian groups who had very direct and personal interests in removing Saddam. Sure, many Iraqis genuinely think this war is good. But they are safe abroad, and have no more right to approve an agressive war than we have. Do not believe what you see on the news unless it coincides with your personal experience.

My second point is one that I and others have made already: most people do want Iraq to move on from Saddam's dicatorship, so the question is not of whether we are doing the right thing as to whether we (you;) are doing it the right way. That could have been done, the rest of world argues, without destroying Iraq (that is only necessary in order for American companies to make a lot of money in reconstruction contracts financed by international aid. Some of these contracts have already been promised to specific companies by Bush). Certainly it could have been done without destroying the UN, and to some extent (but that is Blair' fault, not Bush's), destroying European relationships (also very much in the US interest btw) and setting back the East-West relationship back one hundred years. Whatever happens, the US weapon lobbies, big companies and Bush's friends in general have already won this war and it was never about the Iraqi people.

Of course they will kill Saddam or he'll flee. They might even achieve that with little loss of life. I will still be against and booing this unspeakable vanity and profit-motivated aggression which is setting an incredibly dangerous precedent to our world.

GML
UK, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:50:08 PM

Arrgh, sorry--it is not an ALLEGED separation of church and state. READ the constitution. Familiarize yourself with the document that started this country.
Dee
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 10:03:08 PM

Sorry Anne, but doesn't the fact that God is mentioned on our money tell you anything?? If you believe in God, then what the heck are the 10 commandments telling you?
Oy
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 10:01:11 PM

Jen - I would be more interested in hearing the views of the Iraqis who still live in Iraq. As with the Cubans who live in the United States, the Iraqi Americans left usually for economic reasons and they are often very successful small business owners. In Canada, anyway, small business owners are usually fairly right wing. I would guess that most of the Iraqi Canadians are fairly recently arrived. According to newscasts here their concerns are mainly for the members of their family still in Iraq, rather than the bigger political picture.
Gail
Canada, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 09:49:20 PM

There's been an interesting series on NPR that discusses American presidents in wartime. Tonight, one of the topics was how leaders have invoked God in their speeches. The historians on the show said that presidents have always (since Geo. Washington) brought God into their wartime speeches, and they played a tape of an eloquent speech made by FDR addressing the troops just about to leave for WWII that did just that. They said, though, that up until recent years (they didn't say exactly which administration - definitely post WWII, Eisenhower, maybe, or Bush I) that God was asked for His assistance in the effort, whereas these recent presidents have used rhetoric that implies or states that God is on our side.

I have never understood the presence of God in American politics, because of the alleged separation of church and state. But it has always been there - even our money says "in God we trust" (how much more American can we get than our money?)
Anne
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:44:09 PM

Hi! I have been following your discussion here, and I wanted to say that it's been a veritable feast for thought. I am still not sure what I really think about this war. I know that it's not going to stop--they are committed to it now. I certainly hope for the best outcome, which would include the fewest number of human casualties.

I have been watching various news reports all day, and the one thing I wanted to comment upon are the several pieces I have seen in which Iraqi-Americans speak their minds about this war. We have a large Arab-American population here in Maryland (especially closer to D.C.). I have noticed that the bulk of those in my area fully support this war, and that is what I was hearing from other Arab-American communities around the country today.

My question is this: What do those of you who are so adamantly against the war make of this? These people have family and friends in Iraq--in fact ALL expressed an interest in returning to their homes there. Many said they pray daily for this to become a reality. Of course, if they returned now, they would be murdered by Saddam's regime. They repeatedly stressed the West's role in bringing Saddam to power, stated in no uncertain terms that they never wanted him to be their leader, nor do they support him. They continued to assert that this is a common feeling in Iraq, and I believe they probably know what they're talking about. And they said over and over how we created him, and now we must "bring him down."

One man said he is the sole member of his family who got out and made it to America. When asked if he would still support this war if he discovered that his entire family had been killed in the bombing, he answered, "How could I not? It is the good of the whole of Iraq that matters. Terrible things happen every day already. It would still be Saddam's fault."

When I hear things like that, it makes me wonder, IF we should be successful in taking out Saddam, how do you think the Iraqi people will respond?

Also, their response, if it is a positive one (meaning that they eventually--somewhere down the road--show approval for being given back control of their country and their lives), would that have any impact on the anti-war feeling? Or do people believe that, no matter WHAT the Iraqi's say at the end of the day (or year or decade), we were 100% wrong, and if we could turn back time, we'd retract their freedom to undo the war?

Hope that question makes sense (severe lack of sleep here LOL).

Just some things I've been pondering . . . You don't have to respond if you don't want to. Again, thanks so much for coming here and discussing this like mature, intelligent people. I'm sure lots of people like me are lurking.
Jen
MD, USofA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 05:22:12 PM

Hi kids--all fabulous stuff--re my boss (thank you for the comments!!), I guess I should have added that regardless of his current political opinion, he is a very good man, and he treats his employees well. I guess I don't push my opinion on him because he is entitled to his, and he is my friend, and he is too emotionally attached to the conflict.

Very interesting stuff about British and Irish history too! Thank you.
Dee
USA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 05:03:17 PM

Renie-I think it DOES!!!You have your opinion and I have mine. Not everyone is against what we are trying to do in Iraq. People who have negative feelings about this seem to have a hard time accepting that others are giving their support. This is why its a FREE country-unlike Iraq. Hopefully the Iraqui people will soon have the same wonderful freedoms that you and I have.
Troy08
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 04:49:19 PM

Well, I'm proud to be an American, too, Troy08. And to support my country--WHEN--the ends and means are rightful. We are always living in "hard" and "difficult times". However, this doesn't give the U.S. the right to do what it's doing in Iraq.
Renie
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 04:39:07 PM

Gail, I was listening to that CBC broadcast also. I usually have CBC on all day. You generally get to hear all sides of the argument.
Deb
Montreal, Canada, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 03:43:31 PM

I am Proud to be an American! I am proud to support our brave fighting men and women. I am proud of our President for taking a tough stance and NOT backing down! I am proud to support George W. Bush. I am proud that our county stands for peace, freedom and democracy and we are willing(unlike France and others)to put our lives on the line for what we believe in. I don't like war, and no one willingly wants a war, but often time hard and very difficult choices need to be made. I am proud that America can make those choices!!!I pray that the conflict is swift and there is minimal loss of life for all involved. These are difficult times we live in, and I am proud to support my President and my country!!!
Troy08 , <Proud to use her name and not some alter>
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 03:21:56 PM

From the streets of San Francisco:

"We don't want to alienate people. I hope people realize that
political murder merits action that inconveniences them," said
Quinn Miller, 32, who took the day off from his job for a
banking company and said he expected to be arrested for the
first time in his life.

As protesters made their way, they looked up at the office workers
watching from the windows of surrounding business. "Join us,"
they chanted. "Out of your office and into your street."

"This is not a fight with the San Francisco Police Department,"
an organizer told a group of 20 activists seated around her in a
semicircle. She cautioned them not to be aggressive with police.
"Do not touch the police or any of their equipment. Repeat after
me. Do not touch the police or any of their equipment."

On Van Ness Avenue, a group of 40 to 50 protesters walked
south, blocking intersections around City Hall before heading to
the Federal Building, where they planned to disrupt business.

Carol Maddox, an occupational therapist supervisor, said the
intent was "to disrupt the city."

"We can't just go on with our lives when people are dying,"
Maddox said.

Local news is at sfgate.com.
Renie
Marin, CA , - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 01:58:19 PM

GML, I meant to say it was actually me on the AR GB who recommended "Bowling for Columbine". (LOL)

Peaceful protesters, blocking intersections in civil disobedience, have been active in San Francisco since early this morning. It's a small inconvenience to be late to work, to be reminded that starting a war should be anything but business as usual.

The less responsible side of me is *so* tempted to refer to the "Coalition of the Willies"... in light of recent AR GB discussions....but I shouldn't go there!


Just in case you thought I was overly serious, Renie
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 01:44:12 PM

Och, sorry about the huge spaces. Not sure what happened.
GML
UK, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 01:31:50 PM

Any chance of also providing a link to www.channel4.com alongside the BBC link, Claire? I really, really think they are more objective and do not hush or play down the protests and opinions, like I'm afraid the BBC is doing in order 'to support our troops'. Anyway, while I was perusing the news page on Channel 4, I found... Michael Moore's letter to Bush! (below)

And now I'll calm down and stop posting every five minutes, promised, it's just so soothing. I'll disappear for a while coz I'm off to London tomorrow for the whole weekend (Collateral Damage III on Friday, the national demonstration (never mentioned on the BBC) on Saturday and the Peace Concert on Sunday. I'll need a rest at work on Monday!... ;)

"A Letter to George W. Bush on the Eve of War
George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC

Dear Governor Bush:
So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually no one in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are passionate about wanting to kill Iraqis. You won't find them! Why? 'Cause no Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans – the ones who never elected you – are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives – and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: Two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars – the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a Sin. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only one (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't think so? Well, hey, guess what – we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers – Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. – spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do – tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up – there is good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner – and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows – maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like that! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis – they got our oil!!

Yours,
Michael Moore "

GML
UK, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 01:27:57 PM

There is a web site involved largely in petitioning the UN. I believe it was founded by some offshoot of the Quakers (American Friends Service Committee). In any case, they are organizing candles in the window for peace, and petitions to the UN. If you are interested, the site is Move On.
Georgiana
Seattle, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 12:45:08 PM

Was it Lily who said (sarcastically) that the poor could pay for the cost of war? Why not? This country becomes more and more like a South American dictatorship every day. Every year, the gap between the rich and the poor gets wider. Power is, more than ever, concentrated in the hands of the wealthy few. The middle class is disappearing at an alarming rate. You should've been down at the Soup Kitchen this morning; the length of the line was truly impressive.

As to the connection between God and Country...Well, that's always been such a convenient justification. It's been used since the beginning of time. It was subtler in the US before the "Moral Majority" (aka the right wing religious groups led by people like Jerry Falwell) got behind the Republican Party to push their religious agendas through to law. There's a lot of money in some religions these days, and the politicians will roll over for anybody who will scratch their tummies. This is not a nation of plurality any more. They may as well just drag that statue in the New York harbor outta there and put up a great big dollar sign.
Carolyn, dear Carolyn
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 12:42:36 PM

Heavens, I haven't posted so often in a long while! Yes Sue, the same Gail as the one you met at PL. What a long time ago that seems. Those who are interested in 'neutral' coverage of what is going on in the Middle East might like to tune into CBC Radio via internet. go here (sorry, I've forgotten how to make the link ) http://www.cbc.ca/audio.html and pick CBC Radio One. Interesting informative educated commentary - the most recent being an erudite discussion on when it is 'legal' to take a pot shot at a head of state when at war, with reference to last night's missile shots into Baghdad.
Gail
Canada, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 12:06:50 PM

Pray for the innocents.
A Concerned Citizen
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:58:51 AM

Sue--Dee could sue the pants off her boss under state and Federal employment laws which protect her from that kind of unlawful termination--not to worry.
Renie
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:48:29 AM

Quote:
"If my boss knew I was posting here, he would give me the boot in a second." Dee

Well, it's always good to hear about the Land of the Free!!

sue
england, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:36:26 AM

Ulrike in Germany--your post was a bit of light on a very dark day. Thanks for reminding everyone of the simple need for all citizens (and especially U.S. citizens) to stand up and be counted in their reservations or opposition to a war that should never have begun. Anti-Bush is an excellent way to put it. My government does not have my support for this action, and the States, and the people who live in them, are *not* united in this war effort.

To Anne and others who may feel "I'm just not sure I belong in this country anymore"--you belong here, now more than ever. As Ulrike pointed out, the U.S. has been regarded as a model of democracy, a place where the freedom to dissent and question authority set us as a standard. Now that the U.S. has begun fighting Iraq, it's more important than ever not to let others make us feel "un-American" for objecting to this war. Those who "support our troops" have to be informed that people who oppose the war (a) do NOT want to put those men/women in harm's way, (b) to fight an untimely war which *we've" begun (without a declaration or act of war by the Iraqi government), (c) without the support of military allies. (They don't belong over there, by themselves--how could we send them?!)

The importance of reminding people--whatever they feel about the war--about the lessons of the past, about foreign and domestic political agendas (including the consolidation of economic interests), about what America *really* means to each of us, is critical, now. We all have the power to *speak*, to express an opinion. In some instances, it takes an act of bravery to voice the strength of your conviction. I would argue that we in the United States have this responsibilty to our country (which I refuse to give up to those who have their own political/economic ends). We also have this responsibility to the the world--the world we hope to hand off to our children. Each of us needs to find the courage to speak our minds. In discussion forums, and in public.

We live in a global community. That's not an empty phrase, as our presence together, here in this forum, demonstrates.

And you'll notice that I don't use God as my final punctuation mark.

EM--The anti-war war constituency has no sympathy for Saddam Hussein. He's the worst kind of dictator and despot, and what the people of Iraq have suffered I can't begin to really know. But I do know that nation states should not unilaterally decide to invade a country and overthrow its leader, secure in the knowledge that it knows what's best for another people and its way of governing. Solid, lasting democratic change evolves from within, and is led by leaders trusted and respected in that country. (Lily, I agree with what you said about liberation coming from within.) Not propped-up puppets ready to cut deals with the U.S. hand that works it.

For the last several decades or longer, world affairs have been regulated by nation states, which follow rules, and respect boundaries of borders and behaviour. Countries must NOT be allowed to self-appoint themseves as the arbiters of another country's government or assets. This is even MORE true when nuclear capabilities and budding programs in "fledgling" countries and emerging regimes threaten to throw existing stability off balance. (What if terrorist blocks begin to feel that they can seduce a country to act as a "host", in order to become a bigger player in a fight for the world's pie?)

The nations claimed by the U.S. as part of the coalition were likely bought off--money, aid packages, trade agreements, whatever we can offer up. (The last I heard, Turkey didn't take 6 million in exchange for miliatary bases for a northern front.)
Lily--Kristol chills me to the bone; I, too, saw a horrible macabre glee when he spoke of the future he envisions. The hard-line unilateralists believe the U.S. can isolate itself and "win" in all sorts of ways . . . I've never heard a more "losing" view of world affairs.

Thanks, everyone, for your continuing comments and information here.

Renie
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:27:56 AM

Whoops, sorry Gail, I called you April. Won't happen again. :-)


"T"
California, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:13:58 AM

Wow, thanks for all the great history lessons Magda, GML, and April! Very nice.

Re: the BBC - if this has already been discussed (I'm new) I apologize, but just want to mention (in the far off chance that somebody might not already know this) that most pbs tv stations in the U.S. also run BBC news on a daily basis. Their live coverage was on for hours and hours yesterday and last night.

Dee, sorry to hear that your work place is so oppressive. Thank goodness not all of southern California thinks like your boss - at least you can come here or go home and watch KCET in the evenings, where occassionally they will have good interviews over these issues. Last Friday evening Bill Moyers on "NOW" interviewed the American diplomat who quit his job in Athens, Greece because he could no longer represent America in good conscience. It was quite moving, and it's good to hear about those in key positions who are not afraid to stand up for what they believe is right.

Also, in the midst of so much bad news, I was happy to hear last night that at my nephew's middle school (grades 6, 7, and 8) in Eugene, Oregon, the students are encouraged to protest against Bush and the war. The school is helping teach the kids how to get involved. There is a slightly mixed message in that they're telling the kids they don't want them to skip class to do it - um, protest against the war when it doesn't conflict with their school work! But the school's argument is that most demonstrations don't start until school is out anyway. Anyway, it's really great to know that even in times like these there are kids who are being encouraged to think and look carefully at what's going on.
"T" (for Tammis)
California, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 11:04:32 AM

Thank you Magda,GML and Gail for that brief whizz through British History;) You are right Gail, the vast majority of mainland Brits would love to see the Protestant Northern Irish less *loyal* or even detached from Ireland and towed out into the North Atlantic where they could have their silly parades and listen to the Reverend (reverend!?!?!) Ian Paisley to their hearts content!! Joking apart though, the hatred that runs through Northern Ireland will never disappear despite peace agreements etc etc. It is inbred, even the samllest of children want to know if you are a "Cat" or a "Prod". It is exactly the same situation as with Israel and Palestine. I can recall my father (who has been dead 30 years)who served in the Palestine Police after WW11, saying that he could never invisage the Jews and Palestinians living peacably alongside each other. (Lets not forget either that many of the older Israeli politicians were in fact terrorists, my dad would point out Prime Ministers who had bombed hotels etc)

O/T BTW Gail, are you the Gail I met in October 2001 at PL?? (I was with Christine from Canada)
Sue
England, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 10:55:56 AM

More on the History of Britain (Northern Ireland volume) from a transplanted Brit. When Southern Ireland gained its independence from the UK in the 1920s (I think) the six northern counties, mostly populated by Protestants, were hived off and remained part of the United Kingdom. The Protestants then proceeded to make life very difficult for the Catholics and there were many barriers for them. It was hard to get a job if you were not Protestant. The Protestants are those funny looking geezers wearing bowler hats you see trying to organise marches through Catholic parts of town to annoy the Catholics, the parades nominally in honour of the conquering of Ireland by William of Orange back in the 1600s. I don't think there is a shred of a sense of humour among them or they would realise how silly they look. As a C of E Brit it really sticks in my craw that the Protestants call themselves Loyalists. I think the UK would have happily ditched Northern Ireland a long time ago if it had not been for the threat of mass bloodshed. Occasionally things seem to settle down for a short while, and then some knucklehead from one side or the other does something to upset the applecart.
Gail , <gailrt97@yahoo.com>
Canada, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 10:13:36 AM

Thank you, GML--uh, "God" Save the Queen??? Hee-hee. Um, yes, well, here is a funny pic of Snape in the desert (okay, okay--it's Egypt, but it's the sand and all . . .) http://members.lycos.co.uk/amyrow/images/wallpaper/snape_giza.jpg

Whoa, am I late for work!!
Dee
US, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 09:44:50 AM

Oh, can I finish Magda's History of Britain (Abridged) ? Can I, Can I? ;) - Well, then there were a few Protestant kings all called 'George' (imported from Germany of the new Axis of Evil) and unless I'm wrong, all their descendants have been protestant kings and queens up to the present (or rather Church of England, which is an attenuated version). The attempt at protestant-ing Ireland mostly failed, the exported lot and the natives did not get married, have lots of protestant children and live happily ever after. Instead, and to this day, the Catholic IRA terrorists and paramilitary groups of Catholics and Protestants are still killing each other on a nearly daily basis. Which is a perfect historical example of how simple-minded imperialistic policies à-la Bush and à-la Blair can have long-term consequences they are both to vain and too thick to even start to comprehend. Or more likely don't give a m*rde since somebody else will have to sort it out long after they are dead.

It might be worth pointing out that the C of E is the State religion here (no separation in Britain as far as I'm aware) but in effect, it was more separated than in the US I think, until recently. So John Major started it, Sue? I noticed the 'God is on my side' thing in Blair and it worried me a lot. Anyway, the present and new archbishop in charge of the Church of England would like to make it less pompous and more tolerant [particularly of gay people] I hear, so there is hope for social progress there. Some sort of balancing.

Um, I was reading the Coalition of the Willing list. Mostly poor countries who could do with a few American dollars, eh? Oh, and a few powerful ones wishing to become more so. By the way, there is a list of short official statesments/condemnations from many countries on the BBC page page at the moment. Including the Netherlands.

GML
UK, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 09:36:57 AM

Probably most who can have a tv or a radio on to keep up with the news. Those in North America with satellite can receive BBC America or BBC Canada and they still have a correspondent in Baghdad. If you are relying on the internet you can go here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/email and sign up for newsflashes. BBC often has new news before Reuters on my screen.

Gail , <gailr97@yahoo.com>
Cobourg, Ontario, Canada, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 09:03:57 AM

ATW, brilliant script! Yours? Mail it to all you know and let it spread on the Internet! Mail it to the Stop the War Coalition people (www.stopwar.org.uk), they might publish it on their website. On the poodle theme, I was thinking of possible marching songs for Saturday in London and as it has to be a tune everybody knows and the words simple to learn, I thought that 'yap yap yap yap' on the tune of 'God Save the Queen' would do rather well and say it all:

Yap yap yap yaaap yap yap, yap yap yap yaaap yap yap, yap yap yap yap. Yap yap yap yaaaaaap yap yap, yap yap yap yaaaaaap yap yap, yap yap, yap yap yap yap yaaaap yap yap, ya-aap yap yap YAP!

Well, you could use "wo-oof woof, woof, WOOF!" but I prefer yaps... ;)

Sorry... can't be serious all the time...

About the Stop the War Coalition website, I would recommend a visit. They organized the last march in London and you know how huge that was. They also have links to all the other peace events, including the ones organized by artists, and a link you can use to fax your MP and let him/her know what you think of the war and how you will vote next time (you do it online, they print it and send it to him/her, far more efficient than an email).

GML
UK, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 09:01:59 AM

What is this garbage on the news that there is a Saddam look-alike flitting about?? I can't even bear to listen to it.
Dee
USA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 08:43:20 AM

Magda, I'm noting the connection between church and state. Why did you stop in the 1700's?? Keep going girl . . . bring me to the present--I'm wide awake.
Dee
USA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 08:38:14 AM

Hello everyone. First, many thanks to whoever set this page up. (Claire?) It was very badly needed right now. I have been scrolling back and seeing a lot of very familiar names, confirming my view that we have a lot in common apart from AR - a special hello to you all. It has been very depressing watching the US manoeuvre itself into this 'war' after making sure that the 'enemy' has disarmed itself to a very large extent. There have been some very good analyses in the press lately, particularly from the UK. As a very simplistic overview - the US is now the sole superpower. It wants to remain that way. (Every superpower of its time does - viz France in the 18th century, Great Britain in the 19th, and will do what it feels is needed to maintain its position.) Remember that conservative group that included Dick Cheney and many of the current administration and which met in 1996, and that lamented that it would take a new Pearl Harbor to give the excuse needed to reshape the world the way they wanted? They got that, of course, with 9/11. Taking on Iraq, a country with no proven links to the 9/11 terrorists, although one that rewarded the families of suicide bombers in Israel (and heaven knows why Saddam decided to hold one of those very public ceremonies this past week)was a cynical choice. The US has put the world on notice that it will brook no challenge. Other countries are to sit up and take notice - anything that the US feels threatens its superiority and lifestyle will not be tolerated. Don't get me wrong - in many ways the US is a beacon for the world. But there are elements, in particular the squandering of natural resources (did anyone mention oil here?)that make me very uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I think the US is setting itself up for many years of terrorism, both at home and at targets abroad. The Arab and Muslim world will not tamely accept what the US is trying to impose. And yes, let's please leave God out of it.
Gail , <gailr97@yahoo.com>
Cobourg, Ontario, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 08:23:51 AM

Dee - Sectarianism started by Henry v111 because he wanted a divorce to marry Anne Boleyn.The pope refused to let him have an annullment from his first wife who was his brothers widow (still there? or zzzzzzz ing lol).
First wife delivers him a daughter Mary who was brought up in the RC faith.Second wife has a daughter Elizabeth who is brought up protestant.He has that wife beheaded cos she doesnt give him a son and he has now fallen for third wife.She gives him a son Edward .

When Henry the Eighth dies Edward is proclaimed King but as he is a sickly child he dies early.The next in line is Mary who has married Philip of Spain .She now decides that England should be Catholic again and starts to force people to convert back to Catholocism.This of course was done in the best possible taste of torture - burnings etc.

Mary dies leaving Elizabeth as Queen who promptly turns the country back to protestentism again.As Elizabeth is The Virgin Queen she dies childless too so thats when hercousin by Mary Queen of Scots comes to the throne supposedly uniting the Kingdom of England and Scotland.

Although his mother was a fervent Catholic he was brought up strict Calvinist by John Knox et al (He was a cracker just didnt burn Catholics he burnt Baptists too LOL)

Anyway He managed to have a son Charles 1.Now his downfall was he thought he had a Divine right to rule so in comes Oliver Cromwell .He thought that Charles was wrong and that Parliament should be ruled by the people (But not all the people just Landowners.)He hated the Irish because of their Catholic faith so decided to crush them.Charles gets beheaded then rules England as a Puritan country.(Think Salem).When he dies England has got fed up of being miserable so invite Charles 2 back to rule.He was known as *Old Rowley* and half of our House of Lords is descended from him and his mistresses.Unfortunately his wife could not produce an heir so his brother James became King after him.Now his leanings where to Catholocism so the ruling elite at that time decided to ask William of Orange to become King.He beat the Irish at the Battle of the Boyne.To try and make the country of Ireland more protestant he imported Presbetyrian Scots to Ulster.Gave them lands and succeded in alienating the Catholics.


Magda
Scotland, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 08:11:55 AM

Yankee Poodle Dandy (aka The Blair Pitch Project)

Yankee Poodle went to town,
He was such a phoney,
Sidled up to Uncle Sam,
Learnt to talk baloney,

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

Dandy and George went off to talk,
Sailed away with Captain Stubb'in,
Followed them, cabinets combined,
Thick as hasty puddin'.

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

“We will make war on Iraq,
Even with us only,
With hi-tech we will attack,
Or my name’s not Tony,”

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

“De-mock-racy we will install,
New leaders we'll select some,
Brother Jeb will oversee,
George will thank his best son,”

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

“Bra-ver-y won't be our badge,
Yellow our dis-col-our,
Rain hell-fire by remote,
Make dead both child and mullah,”

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

"People say we ain’t so brave,
We'd never risk a lickin'
Sure that's true we don't fight fair,
But aren't all bullies chicken?"

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

When will his party disown him?
Coalition of the only,
Throw ‘im off his high horse?
Toss him from his pony?

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
The understudy’s handy.

Sheep's Head and Vinegar,
Butter Milk and Tansy,
Was London ever Yankee town?
Sing Goodbye my Poodle Dandy.

Yankee Poodle, keep it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Mind the Music you will pay,
Your understudy's handy

Time is up my Poodle dear,
Phoney threat and phoney foe,
Evil war, a world in fear,
Heed the call and simply go!

Yankee Poodle keep it up,
Yankee Poodle’s Fancy,
We don’t want war with Iraq,
Show the world you can see.

Cau-cus room you shed a tear,
Message is “we’ve had enough”,
Pity you? new Poodle Peer,
Pity who? your life ain’t tough.

Yankee Poodle, kept it up,
Yankee Poodle Dandy,
Faced the Music he did pay,
Retirement was handy

Against the war , <stopthewar@hotmail.com>
New York, NY, USA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:52:38 AM

Lily, I wish I could say the same. Unfortunately, at my job, there are only two of us who do not support this military action. My boss hates the French, supports Bush, and is proud to have his only son in Iraq. No one in my office can speak one word against this war. We have one employee who was born in Iran, and she is constantly worried she will be fired. If my boss knew I was posting here, he would give me the boot in a second. That is why this GB is so important to me.
Dee
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:42:51 AM

Magda, I understand that some of the countries listed on the "willing coalition" did not actually agree to be named thereon. (Are we surprised?)

To all the Brits and French who have indicated there is a clear separation of church and state--you cannot comprehend how much I wish the U.S. was similar!!! I absolutely cringe every time I hear some politician attempt to give his/her lies credence by invoking the word "God." Would that I had the guts to pick up and leave this country and move to England!! (My roots are there!!) I'd move to France, but my French is tres bad--although I did catch a swear word in one of the previous posts :)

I would like to say that Ulrike's post was very moving and saddened me greatly. Clearly, it shows that America--once a nation with great promise of liberty for all--is in decline. I understand that all Arabic peoples who attempt to enter this country--legally, mind you--will immediately be arrested. What was once the bastion of freedom of ideas, speech, and even religion and a haven for those who were persecuted by tyrannical governments is now a police state. Our Bill of Rights means nothing anymore. That document was produced as a result of this country's desire to ensure the government could NOT have unchecked powers. Bush does not heed the Bill of Rights. I have no power to change anything either.

I do have a question for all the UKers--pardon my ignorance of UK history, but would you clarify for me the protestant/catholic issue? Seems to me there has been a bit of a problem between the two over the years--and some part of the government must have supported either side. No offense please!! I'm just curious to hear the info (we have a similar problem in the Boston area as well).

To everyone--the posts here are great. You have no idea how much I need to hear from like-minded people at this time. Thank you so much.
Dee
USA, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:35:27 AM

Sue, I think it is largely "God bless oil guzzling America" that drives this war. Already, CNN is reporting that troops are moving in to secure the Iraqi oil fields. North Korea, a regime far more dangerous, repressive, and clearly in possession of 'weapons of mass destruction,' but, lacking oil, has not been so honored with our military presence. The national hypocrisy is cloying.
Georgiana
Seattle, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:31:10 AM

Good morning and good evening to everyone here from all around the globe. That is one of the best things about this spot, we're from everywhere.

Ulrike, personally, I know only one person who supports this deadly adventure. There are many, many people in the States who are in opposition. Glad we all remind you and others of another view of Americans which you understandably preferred! We're still here. And, we ain't goin away.

Lily
Chicago, IL, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 07:27:14 AM

Looking through the Guardian yesterday I came upon the "Willing Coalition".
The USA State Dept; has issued a list of the countries willing to be named.
Afghanistan - Albania - Australia - Azerbaijan - Bulgaria - Colombia - The Czech Republic - Denmark - El Salvador - Eritrea - Estonia - Ethiopia - Georgia - Hungary - Italy - Japan - Latvia - Lithuania - Macedonia - The Netherlands - Niceragua - The Phillipines - Poland - Romania - Slovakia - South Korea - Spain - Turkey (Is included even though it has so far still not agreed to co-operate) United Kingdom and Uzbeckistan.
What could Eritrea and Ethiopia have to offer.And what have those two countries been offered to sign on to this farce.I only hope its not arms that they have been bribed with.
magda
Scotland, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 06:42:51 AM

Without wanting to offend anyone, it seems to me (IMHO) that the US government has 'God on tap'! He's an obliging fella, that God of theirs!
Remember Clinton's "It's between my family and my God" defence over the 'Lewinski affair!' (OT I know, but using to illustrate my point!) He wasn't so worried about his God's opinion before he was caught!
Seems to me that 'God' has become the best unquestionable defence! I'm not an overly religious person but it seems to me that this is the worst sort of 'anti-christ'ism, because it comes from the most powerful nation - using the "God on our side" defence is a blatant exploitation and dismissal of the beliefs of such a large proportion of Christian citizens of the US and of the world. Faith is meant to be a means of living a positive life - not an excuse for leading a negative one!

Severina
Australia, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 05:06:48 AM

GML - I agree with your comments on State and Religion. I find the *God Bless America* mindset one of the hardest things to take about America. Whose God exactly is blessing America? How many hundred of different faiths and religions are we talking about?? Or,is it, as I suspect *God Bless white, middle-class, god-fearing, apple-pie making America*!? I remember at the beginning of the FIRST Gulf War John Major making his speech and right at the end he said Goodnight and God bless!!We all fell of our chairs! We are not used to British politicians flaunting any kind of religious beliefs. Sure they all go to the CofE/State Occasions and mouth along with the rest of us but Tony Blair is the first for some time to start mention religion and LOOK where that has got us!
Sue
England, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 03:26:28 AM

I've been lurking for a few days over here and just want to say how much I've gotten out of everyone's posts. I'm an AR fan (since 1991), but you don't know me as I've never posted on the regular AR site either. I am, however, another person living in the U.S. who is completely against this war (that has now officially begun I see), and am grateful to be able to drop over here once in a while for a bit of sanity.

Julia, I just want to say that there are a lot of Americans who are sick and tired of all the God mixed with politics talk, it gets old really fast. But the media does what it wants with reality, so I suppose some folks in other countries assume we all sound like Bush. In fact, since 9-11 Americans have become a bit polarized on this subject. My conception of the whole thing (and this is a generalization and somewhat subjective) is that it depends on the area you live in. If you live in fairly liberal areas like, for instance, Berkeley, Calif, or Eugene, Oregon, or Seattle, Washington (all areas where the average level of education is higher than average), the general assumption will be that separation of church and state is a very good thing and should be taken seriously. But if you live in more conservative areas such as the inland areas of Calif. like Fresno or Bakersfield (and not surprisingly, where the average level of education is much lower), where a lot of fundamentalist Protestants live - the people who actually did vote for Bush - well, the flag and prayer go hand in hand.

Thanks for letting me participate in your little group. I don't know how much time I'll actually have to write, but I appreciate your thoughtful posts. Did anyone catch how Bush addressed his audience tonight? "My fellow citizens." All cozy sounding. Whew, count me out Mr. Bush.

T.
TGB
California, - Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 02:34:26 AM

Georgiana, supposing I got the right end of the stick myself (re: your post here), we were talking about the song I heard at the Collateral Damage I event, the week before, not CDII (where I understand V Redgrave sang a Donovan song indeed).

Well, there are some remarkably articulate and informed statements here about this war and its real motives, I'm beginning to think this is the best place for info (nonetheless because it is international to some extent).

Now I hope I can do a little aside on religion without causing another war;) : France is I believe one of the few, if not the only European country where State and Church are separated. This is very much the case in reality (no religion enters state schools for instance, church teachings is by choice and takes place in church) - Now I know that separation of Church and State is also the case in the US but, as was mentioned here, all the US politicians speeches I've ever heard mentioned God every 5 seconds. This is truly strange to me (if the French president did that, he would be in big, BIG, trouble;). Is is a purely 'Bush' phenomenon? I had better say I am not a believer myself, at least not in the God churches have to offer us - but I get angry at politicians *using* other people's genuine beliefs to justify anything they wish to do (like war) and sign them on. Hilter claimed God was with him. Every tyrant on this earth claims God is with him. Is this not giving a bad name to religions?
GML
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 01:24:10 AM

Anne - For news use the BBC site:

wwww.http://news.bbc.co.uk/

This is the world edition, it carries a link to hourly reports on Iraq.
Claire
- Thursday, March 20th 2003 - 12:36:24 AM

Lily, your comment was great! Let me add something from a German point of view: When I grew up (in the 60s and 70s), the USA were a model for us Germans; the country which taught us democracy, the love of freedom, a country with friendly people and beautiful landscapes. I loved the language, the music and was happy to go there from time to time. My brother even lived in New Jersey for several years.
Now a lot of Germans think, on hearing the word "America", of recklessness, violence and the arrogance of power. This is so sad!! But this Guestbook helps me to keep in mind that there are still people who don't fit in this new picture of the USA and remind us that we are still no Anti-Americans, only Anti-Bushists!
Ulrike
Germany, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 11:25:05 PM

Julia, eye, I mean, aye, I got it. ;)
Dee
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 10:47:58 PM

Anne, what town do you live in? I am sure someone can find you a radio station with some non-mainstream news.
Dee
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 10:31:50 PM

Oh Canada!!! :) Sounds lovely to me. Speaking of God, I am a firm believer and proponent of the U.S. Constitution. Our founding fathers recognized the need for a separation of church and state--for a reason. If we are to be a tolerant society, then we have no choice but to take references to God out of our state-supported schools, our government, and any other venue which allegedly represents the "people." I do not appreciate Dubya's references to God, for that makes it crystal clear he only represents a portion of the very diverse society that is America. Don't get me wrong, I believe people should be able to follow whatever religion they wish. But Julia, George is a lawless state unto himself, and he just does what he pleases regardless of the effect. BTW, just heard he's going to cut taxes for those whose incomes are over $100,000 a year. Yippee Ky Yay M----- F----- (Hey, it's from an AR movie!!!) How we gonna pay for this war?? Oh, that's right, we can take it from the poor.

Lily--hear, hear.
Dee
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 10:29:17 PM

Enquiring Mind,

I am as sure as I am of anything that no one here has any sympathy for Saddam Hussein, nor does anyone defend him. No, no, he has no support here. Furthermore, every statement of conscience or resistance which I've read from any organization or group of individuals opposed to this war includes a universal condemnation of Saddam. He is a tyrant. However, Saddam is not the only person who lives in Iraq.

As I type here, I hear on the radio that the bombing of
Iraq has begun...9 pm here.

The sanctions which have been in place for the last dozen years, have badly hurt the Iraqi people in terms of degrading their health care system, creating food shortages and lack of nutrition, lack of drugs, physical deformities, untimely death of children in great numbers, etc. The sanctions did not hurt Saddam. Saddam did just fine.

Just like the sanctions, this war will kill, maim, hurt, harm, and make refugees of ordinary Iraqi people just like us...In order to liberate them?!! Saddam may be captured, that we will see. But it will be at greater cost to the ordinary people of Iraq than that monster is worth!! What the US and the "coalition" are doing is once again destroying a country in order to...save it? To liberate it?!! To bring it democracy?!! We aren't liberating anyone. Liberation only occurs when you fight for it, and win it, yourself. No one brings you liberation and democracy from the outside. (That's where men like Bill Kristol, Bush's arrogant ideological guru, have it all wrong. Renie, I watched the entire interview last night. Kristol called this a "war of choice", a "war of risk" and stated outright that it is "not a necessary war". He upheld it as a "neo-Reaganite, aggressive American foreign policy" which he and his buddies have been advocating since 1996. This guy isn't humble, he was disgustingly giddy... with other people's lives.)

This war is about other agendas than liberation and democracy. Iraq sits atop 40% of the world oil. Contracts to "run" and "rebuild" Iraq will go to Cheney's old oil-business corporation, Haliburton, among others. (Haliburton develops and sells equipment related to drilling and extraction of oil.) Moreover, this admin wants to keep rivals (think France, Russia) away from Iraq's oil. It is, in part, an old war over resources and fights among rivals. Remember WWI?

Influential people in and related to this admin have views on how the US as the sole superpower should exercise its power over the world. They do not need the UN, except when they want to pawn off costly, bureaucratic mopping up/refugee aid programs, which they'll try to do after this war. Their unilateralist view of US power puts me and all people who live here at great risk. This country is incredibly powerful, militarily, that is. The extent of that power is dangerous for us who live here. Peoples in other countries fear us, fear our exertion of power and are understandably suspicious of our motivation. I don't think you can over-state their fears, and suspicions. This war, and this admin's heavy-handed shunning of diplomacy and inspections through the UN has aggravated those fears. For pity's sake, we had the support of the Iraqi people but this war through bombing and invasion has increased nationalist sentiment among a people who can't stand Saddam, their "leader"! When we bomb and attack, that's all we are doing--bombing and attacking people. War is terror.

We are engaging in a "war of risk" in an incredibly dangerous region (any number of regional conflicts in the mideast could heat up, link up and backfire on us), that is likely to bring attack from N. Korea--the aircraft carrier Carl Vinson is in the Pacific to attempt to intercept any missile strike. Countries do have secret treaties to come to one another's defense if one of them is attacked. I don't believe we've been told everything here, except by indirection. Front section of yesterday's NY Times, the Bush admin believes there will be either some sort of strike either on the DMZ (killing US and UN soldiers), an underground test of a nuclear bomb, the start of N. Korean nuclear reactors for production of weapons--to be sold to countries that don't have nuclear weapons, &/or possibly a missile strike on Seoul. How this risk creates safety for people like me, escapes me! I've not written at all about biological weapons, possible strikes here against civilians, all forms of retaliation. Frankly, I think the Bush admin have as good as placed an order for some sort of attack(s), not unlike lining up to order a hamburger. We all now proceed with our days thinking another attack will happen. Hamburgers will be served up.

And so, in Iraq there will be refugees. There will be hits to electrical and water/sanitation systems. People will not be able to get to food supplies. Over the last few days, pregnant women filled hospitals in Baghdad trying to have their babies delivered via c-sections because they feared they would not be able to get medical care over the next period. The US used depleted uranium in its bombs in the first Persian Gulf War (1991), in the bombing of Yugoslavia and Kosovo, and there is no reason whatsoever to believe depleted uranium won't be used again here.

If you think of nothing else, remember this cold, dry and deadly statistic: Approximately 67,000 US soldiers died as a consequence of the Vietnam War; 3,000,000--that's 3 million--Vietnamese died in the fighting. And, since the press was kept out of Iraq during the Persian-Gulf War, there is no history of it, no knowledge of how many people died during what Powell called a "turkey shoot" along the highway of death. They were buried in the sand by bulldozers, no records kept. It wasn't 3 million ordinary guys conscripted by Saddam, but it wasn't 3000 either.

The first Bush admin, and this one, would like us to get over the Vietnam syndrome. I intend to never forget, and never get over it. I don't care if it's the most historically out of date notion I've ever had.

P.S. Michaele, you asked people to e-mail you with their reasons for opposing this war on Iraq. I see you have now found this site. Believe it or not, this is only part of my answer. Hopefully, it raises some questions for you to think about. I would love to be wrong about all of it. Would be a relief.


Lily
Chicago, IL, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 09:11:37 PM

CdC - I am with you. I'm just not sure I belong in this country anymore. The mistakes we've made in recent history - in the adult memory of people living today - are looming before us again, and I think they are destined to be repeated. What is wrong with people, don't they remember how they felt even 5 years ago??? The internment of Japanese-Americans, the blacklisting of performers whose ideas were not in accord with the government - I can see these same kinds of things happening very soon, if not already. Wasn't it only a year or two ago that some director who had blacklisted "red" performers in the 50s was boycotted at the Academy Awards when he was to receive a lifetime achievement award? And now we have performers who can't appear because they are against this kooky war? - no, not a war, a "disarmament"?

My town is very conservative, and every Thursday at noon for the last several weeks hundreds of people dressed in white congregate downtown to show support "for the troops" - but the interviews in the paper show me that there are there in support of the war, not quite the same thing. If I didn't have children in high school I would be out of here. I am so depressed and dismayed, and embarrassed to be an American. My public radio station is not broadcasting news (I think they are too underfunded to be staffed with live people in the evening) and all I can get is CBS. Can someone tell me what's happening? Meanwhile I'll have to try the internet for news (is there a good online source?)
Anne
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 09:08:51 PM

Julia: Canada's the country that DH always mentions first when discussing an alternative home.
Carolyn, dear Carolyn
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 08:11:37 PM

Dee, Amen!!! (hee hee, did you get my subtle dig?)

BTW, I have always wanted to ask Americans this; why doesn't anyone object to God Bless America, and the President's and others' similar expressions of faith? Wasn't there that big hoopla over the "...one nation under God" bit? And while Mr. Bush says that America doesn't have any other objectives than to overthrow Mr. Hussein, his frequent invokation of God make it seem like a religious crusade. No wonder there's a response in the Arab world against "the infidels and the unbelievers."
Julia
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:41:59 PM

I said this to my US-based family, and now I say this to you conflicted (no pun intended, but appreciated) Americans: You could always move to Canada! It's like the States, but waaaaay quieter. We fly under the radar, us Canucks. I'd say the same to the UKers, but your situation seems somehow different. I am quite certain that Mr Blair will not be elected next term (hence your democracy will work), but I'm not so sure about Mr. Bush...

Pro-Americans: Please don't send me hate mail. It's really not worth it!
Julia , <j_petrov@hotmail.com>
Calgary Canada, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:36:00 PM

P.S. EM: you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. Shall we agree to disagree peacefully? Peace.
Dee
US, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:34:32 PM

P.S. EM: you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. Shall we agree to disagree peacefully? Peace.
Dee
US, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:33:38 PM

EM: Saddam has not made unreasonable demands of our government. Saddam has not tried to gain control of our natural resources. There are many governments with worse humanitarian records than Saddam. We helped him to gain power, and now we want his oil. (He was our good friend for a long time!) Now, you state "He has walked all over the UN for the last 12 years." It sounds a bit to me that the flip side of your argument is "if he has done it, then so can the U.S." I'm afraid I don't cater to the "eye-for-an-eye" argument or that it is okay for the U.S. to stoop to Saddam's level. I thought we were better than that. As the old saying goes, "an eye for an eye leaves both parties blind." I'm a bit afraid to find out what you mean by "unpopular sacrifices" (because it is not U.S. citizens that will be maimed and killed). I for one do not wish death to anyone, even the wicked Saddam. Do you mind if I ask your age? Do not take offense. I'm just taking a little poll. (Oh, and as Ali-Pat likes to point out, it's much easier to criticize when one is anonymous.)

Renie: did I do okay?
Dee
US, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:29:18 PM

I can't believe it. It's just come on the news. They've actually gone through with it.

Deb
Montreal, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 06:54:23 PM

To Dee-Re the words from the UNCharter that the gentlemen from Syria read????Exactly HOW does Saddam Hussein adhere to those words??Saddam had the opportunity to avert any military action-he chose NOT to and placed his entire nation at risk. I have no sympathy for him. He has walked all over the UN for the last 12 years.Now he and his cohorts will be taken care of. I pray for minimal loss of life.Somtimes unpopular sacrifices must be made for the better good of all.
Enquiring Mind
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 06:25:13 PM

Cdc: I'm going to buy "Stupid White Men" this weekend. Georgiana: you are so right about that ad--interesting coincidence, those similarities . . . GML, good for you, stopping the economy--hitting them where it hurts! :) I too heard about the protests in Britain on KPFK out here in Los Angeles (definitely not mainstream media). Made those PMs and Foreign Ministers late for work--ha! And Renie is correct. I hope no one thinks I'm shouting *at* them. I'm just expressing my (unfortunately rather vehement) opinion.

When is the time deadline for the agressions to begin? Does anyone know?
Dee
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 05:53:43 PM

I had the great pleasure to listen to some of the speeches given in the U.N. Security Council this morning. The impassioned words of Farouk Al-Shara', Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign Affairs of Syria, were quite moving. He quoted from the UN Charter Preamble:

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
*to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
*to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
*to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
*to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS
*to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and
*to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
*to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and
*to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples.

(Executed at the conclusion of World War II.)


Dee
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 05:44:25 PM

GML: Yes, dh and I went to see Bowling For Columbine. It was hard for me to watch--I started crying fairly early in and got sick in the restroom halfway through. I love my country; 99% of my happiest memories come from here. I just don't know how much longer I can stand to live here. This is not just melodramatics on my part. DH and I have lately been discussing where we would relocate. I find myself "losing it" in public lately. I'm pushing books like Stupid White Men and
Fast Food Nation. Especially to my kids. I have a son who is going to be twenty in July. He is exceptionally bright and gifted in math. Not just Mom bragging--he had to do his last few years of math credits at a local university because the high school ran out of advanced classes he could take. Now he is at Georgia Institute of Technology, mostly taking more math classes. GIT has a "cooperative" program, where interested companies offer students an opportunity to work in their desired field in a real-life business setting for part of the year. Guess who the first "company" that approached him was--the CIA. Guess how delighted his father and I were. Not very. I was relieved when he ended up working at Georgia Tech Research Institute. He's back in classes now. I asked him what the current political atmosphere is like on campus. He said it's "apathetic." I wonder what my grandchildren will live with here. The police in our town were one of two forces in the world that used force against antiwar protestors earlier this month. The other was Athens, Greece. It's a hell of a country right now.
Carolyn, dear Carolyn , <arcticColorado@home.com>
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 04:52:03 PM

I missed the first 10 minutes or so of Collateral Damage II, but the song Vanessa Redgrave sang was a Donovan song, not Billy Joel, if I understand what's been posted.

We have an add running on local television, sponsored by a "talk radio" station (KVI) that is closely tied with one of our network affiliates (KOMO, affiliated with ABC). It starts with "He is a war monger," and goes on for quite a few sentences, talking about oil, "He won't let the United Nations do its job." Everytime it runs, I think, finally! An add calling it like it is, talking about what a mess Bush is making of the job. It is half way through this ad that they finally identify Sadam Hussein as the topic! Interesting, don't you think, that nearly every criticism can be levelled against either national leader? I realize, of course, there are differences. But they would not all line up in favor of Mr. Bush.

If you haven't done so, please do read the full text of Senator Byrd's speech. It was quite relevatory.

Georgiana , <gellis@drizzle.com>
Seattle, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 02:23:11 PM

Hey, Rozinka, yes, I think that was the one. Carolyn, sounds like you raised your kids the right way. Friend of mine at work trying to do the same. Not sure I’d be up to the task of raising any kids at all but I admire people who do. It must be a hard time to do it.

Nathalie, que puis-je te dire? Tous les politicians sont des pourris et ne pensent qu’à leur intérêt. Tout ce qu’on peut faire, c’est leur dire m*rde de temps en temps. Si tu as le temps samedi, viens manifester à Londres.

Lily, I have not read much about why the Netherlands accepted to help Bush. There was much more detailed coverage of the six ‘undecided nations’ (undecided = considering bribe offers) at the Security Council and what they could get out of their vote was clearly spelt out: it included promises of ‘aid grants’ ‘preferential loans’ ‘support for application to NATO’, etc, etc but that is old history now, the UN has sadly been dismissed in the rudest possible manner and simply hasn’t got the means to punish the offenders. However, no doubt you heard that Turkey has finally refused to be used as a launch base, yes! And while I’m on about support for this shocking war, I was pleased to hear from a Danish friend today that although 60% of Danes supported the war to start with (anti-Saddam feeling), 80% are now against, Yeah! (Their Prime Minister was sprayed with blood-red paint in Parliament for supporting Bush, he, he!).

Oh, and while we’re talking about action, people here blocked the English Foreign Minister’s street in London and lied outside his house on the floor covered in blood-red paint. The police had to move them. Thousands of school kids demonstrated and I heard on Classic FM radio today that one lane of the road passing Parliament is blocked because of a big demonstration. Excellent. Sadly, this was not mentioned at all on the BBC news. There has been much effort on the part of the government to dismiss the protest by ‘thanking us for feeding the debate’ and pointing out that it is over now and that we must now be patriotic and support ‘Our Boys’ in Iraq. (note the capitals). Sadly it is working with quite a few people and the BBC has sold itself, but I am still hoping that the upcoming anti-war march in London on Saturday will be big enough to show them they have not won public opinion and are going to pay dearly for this at the next election.

Renie, thanks for the Lysistrata report, it sounds like it was a brilliant event. About "Why does my country want me to be afraid?", I was wondering if you and your fellow Americans have seen Moore’s ‘Bowling for Columbine’ documentary. It was a big success here in Europe. Not exactly unbiased, but enlightening in many ways. I know somebody mentioned it on the GB a while ago but uh, I can’t remember who. The media like to encourage paranoia, it seems, and I am so angry at Blair here trying to do the same, telling people there is no need to panic and nothing to fear but to go and stock on food and battery-powered flashlights all the same. Sneaky scaremongering hypocritical little prat. (Somebody explains to me how Saddam who apparently does not have the means to defend Bagdhad is going to starve the UK or anihilate its power supply?!!! ).

Dee, I understand your anger, believe me. For the first time in over a year, I have taken a day off work to try and deal with mine. Being a French national working in England, there is only so much crap I can take from the sheep and cattle I happen to work with. To be told that *France* caused this war is a *little* difficult to stomach. How can I possibly defend England to my French friends and family now? I really am at a loss. It is amazing that the only people willing to talk with me about this are either French, German or American.

About "everybody wanting to disarm Saddam", I assume this is the case because of the undisputed atrocities he has committed on his own people. I totally agree with you, though, that he never was a threat to the West. Sept 11th was perpetrated in America by Al Qaida terrorists based in Germany, not Iraq. And yes, everybody outside the US and the UK is well aware that as long as a criminal dictator is business-friendly to the West, he will be supported. France sold Saddam Hussein many weapons. Donald Rumsfeld, I read, negociated the sale of anthrax to Iraq. The poison factories exposed in Powell’s dossier were derelict buildings, as exposed by the weapon inspectors. No wonder they were silenced.

Well, I think I'll go to bed now and forget about the madness. Till tomorrow.

GML
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 02:05:37 PM

A welcome to those who are newly reading or posting here at Off-Topic. To Sara, if you're here, and to others who are frustrated with cruel dictatorships in the world--discussion about what's going on that country, and who's leading it, and how, should be part of any real and informed discussion about foreign policy. Comments and dialogue are the way in which many of us educated in the Western democratic tradition actually define and refine our views: a way to learn, and a way to understand and respect differing points of view.

It seems to me, that some, though clearly not all, divisive issues in the world could be resolved with better and wider communication. People ought to talk *with* one another and not shout *at* one another. Even when, and especially when, they feel strongly about an issue, or problem. Which is not to say that strong expressions and strident protests don't have a place---they do. But they are a means to achieve the eventual sitting down and hashing out of the difficulties, in a civil and productive setting....

Which is why I'm disappointed that the United Nations seems to have been written off for the moment by Bush and others. As if they're going to wait until after the war's thrust has subsided, then search through the rubble for the means to rebuild an international consensus on how to deal with oppressive regimes. Ach.

Lily, I missed that Charlie Rose, but did catch the end of
last night's show with William Kristol himself--very chilling to watch this guy--who said point blank that this is just the beginning. If the program repeats, I recommend it, too. Kristol is the editor of the Weekly Standard, and a supporter of the new US brand of militaristic nationalism. Under the rubric of "morality in foreign policy" (maybe this warm and fuzzy tagline will be promoted next), we can expect more wars on "outlaw regimes" in pre-emptive wars begun by the United States. How scary is that? This is so much more than finding and killing a symbol--it's a turning point for the way the U.S. operates in the world, and the way it will govern at home--the politics of fear. Kristol's editorial says clearly, by my reading, in Iraq and beyond.

So, we close our eyes at our peril, I think. I hope we can all stay informed and active, in whatever personal and public ways feel right.
Renie
Marin, CA , - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 11:31:25 AM

GML, that song you heard at Collateral Damage was very likely the Randy Newman classic "Political Science," featuring sparkling lyrics like

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Dee and GML, thanks for the insightful comments on this surreal situation. Let's keep doing whatever we can to let the world not all USA-ers like watching our country turn into the worst rogue nation of all.
Rozinka
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 11:22:26 AM

I think this is the page I should stick with. Sorry to be so late catching on. I posted the following on the AR Guestbook before coming here.

Re preaching to the converted: I shouldn't presume to speak for everybody else peace-mongering, BUT I have to say that the reason I keep mailing out peace-themed postcards is that I feel it is a good thing to turn some positive vibes loose amongst all the war talk. Kind of like, warkillsuffer *peace* hatedestructionannihilate *peace* diescorchburn *peace* People need to hear that another option is available. I think actors (especially someone with a VOICE like Rickman's) and indeed anyone with any "power", has an obligation to use that power in a positive way. I feel strongly enough about this that it is the way I raised my children. Sort of a noblesse oblige mindset. P.S It worked--they are wonderful, responsible people working to make this a better world.

Carolyn, dear Carolyn , <icysnowywindblowyblizzard@myhouse.comfoo>
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 08:36:58 AM

Whoops again--forgive my typos.
Dee
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:05:45 AM

Whoops--last comment was to Sara.
Dee
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:05:06 AM

Now I know this one's going to get me into trouble. Saddam has commited human rights violations to be sure, but we have no right to dictate our values on any other country. Indeed, are you familiar with the Nike Corporation? Check out their record with respect to human rights violations--Indonesians who are forced to work long hours for less than $1.00 a day, who live in filth with sewage running down their streets, families crammed into box-like homes--all in the name of making a buck. What about the Israelies? Mowing down peaceful protestors with bulldozers, tattooing prisoner numbers on the arms of captured Palestians, admitting to using Hitler's tactics in their battle over a piece of land . . . I could go on, but I won't. I'm sick to death of wars and killing. Sick to death.
Dee
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 07:04:15 AM

The president's speech? What utter hypocrisy! Check out some articles on Scott Ritter, ex-marine and former U.N. weapons inspector, who claims the U.S. government is lying to the people and that Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction. Naturally, the American media likes to keep Ritter's comments out of the news. (Hmmmm, didn't we bomb and alleged chemical weapons factory in Iraq only to learn that it made aspirin?)

GML, you state that "everybody wants to disarm Saddam . . ." I do not believe Saddam has ever been a threat to the U.S., the U.K., or any other western power. Saddam is rich from oil, and wants to stay that way. The U.S. was once a great friend of Saddam, and even provided him with weapons in his war against Iran (of course we surreptitiously sold weapons to Iran at the same time). (Indeed, you do know that the CIA trained Osamma bin Laden and his men in terrorist tactics?--but I digress.) Many countries (with less-then-stellar human rights records) now possess or have the capability to possess weapons of mass destruction, even the U.S. So why not disarm them all? I am not a believer in any imperialist power going into any country and using force to cram its political ideals down another culture's throats--or to steal another country's natural resources (that is barbaric). We are using diplomacy with Korea to disarm!! What's the difference with Saddam? Could it possibly be oil or a megalomaniac president's personal vendetta?

The problem with Americans is that we have never suffered the effects of a war fought on our own soil. We are spoiled, flabby, elitist, money-hungry, egocentric juveniles who believe we are invincible in the name of democracy and God . . . Well, I shall stop here because I'm getting all riled up. Saddam is a bad man--but so is George W. Bush.
Dee , <Don'twantMcDonald'soneverycorneroftheworld>
USA, - Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 06:34:55 AM

Dear GML,

my heart is so heavy now that I know that there is only 13 hours left before the end of the ultimatum. I don't understand why Australia has rejoined Bush. Can anyone explain it? I can't believe this could be.
Nathalie
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 05:29:55 AM

To Michaele and Sara if they are checking this page as they said, thanks for taking yourselves here, you’re right, it’s better to leave non directly related AR politics out of the main GB;)

The quick answer to your questions is that of course everybody wants to disarm Saddam Hussein. The argument is about "How?". Resolution 1441 said that this should be done peacefully if possible, the vast majority of the world’s people and governments want this to happen through the weapons inspections, reserving the right to go for UN-approved military action if and when the inspectors themselves say they can no longer progress. (That was the consistently upheld French/German/Russian/Chinese/Syrian position, by the way, which was distorted beyond recognition when the clever propagandists out there decided to scapegoat the French to gain support).

That time had not come yet, the inspections were beginning to progress, albeit slowly, and under military pressure (I recognize and approve that)... There were talks about peaceful troops assisting the inspectors, neighbouring muslim countries were coming up with their own peaceful proposals, this was the chance for the Western and Eastern world to learn to work together and eliminate Saddam (and a lot of the world terrorism) in the process with minimum violence when suddenly... CRASH! The Bush administration (not the American people) decided to just go and flatten Iraq with bombs to show the world who's the boss and to try to regain some prestige after their failure to capture Bin Laden. The opportunistic and world-fame-craving Mr Blair tagged on. Followed the propaganda, the lies (faked dossiers, distorted news etc) and totally urealistic deadlines for disarmament (laughable cow-boy tactics, as outlined in Renie's last post) in order to gain support.

Well, it hasn't worked. Most of the Powell/Blair evidence has been provenfaked and some of the US tactics for 'convincing' UN members to support them are the object of enquiries at the UN. And why didn't the bribes and threats work? Because leaders could not approve a course of war which would lose them all their voters in their own country. Everybody is aware that this US/UK-led military action, combined with years of UN sanctions, is going to kill many, many more Iraqi people than Saddam Hussein ever has. (Do you realize most of his soldiers are conscripts? They are poor guys with families, who have not chosen to fight and are not equipped to defend themselves but are going to be sent as cannon fodder by Saddam and treated as the 'ennemy army' by the almighty US? As far as I am concerned, they will count as civilian casualties. Oh, and the Red Cross estimates that something like 7000 children are going to be killed in the two or three first days of bombing alone).

Too risky. And all the more undefendable as this long-planned move from Mr Bush has pretty well destroyed the UN and has totally ignored what the other Muslim countries in the region had to say, which will cause a lot of anger and increased terrorism.

So there are a few of us here who refuse to support people who clearly did not want to disarm Saddam with minimum , but with maximum force and have their own self-interested motives for getting to Iraq first. And these are not protecting the Iraqi people. That should have been the job of the UN, now destroyed.

Well, that was the short answer, or rather *my* short answer. I expect you are grateful you didn't get the long one! All other (informed) opinions welcome.

GML
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 03:19:44 AM

I didn't even realize this forum existed. I will be reading your political comments to try to get a fuller understanding of all the views about the upcoming war.

Thanks for letting my know about this page.
Michaele
- Wednesday, March 19th 2003 - 03:19:48 AM

Yes, "Frontline" program on PBS last night was very good. I think it gets repeated on PBS sometime during the week. Renie, I agree; we should tell the person on the GB, via e-mail, to watch it for background and for information about the influence of certain men in the Bush court.

Charlie Rose had one of the guys from Bill Kristol's magazine on his program last night, along with Jonathan Schell from "The Nation" and others. The "Bill Kristol man" (whom you've seen on newstalk shows if you live in the US) seemed extraordinarily dry-mouthed, incredibly nervous, even humbled (compared to his usual presentation), as if the full realization had set in that the lives of many people and the future hinge on the kind of ideological influence he and his cohorts have on Bush. I'd say "good" that he was waking up but I'd rather we all didn't have to go through the reckoning with reality he's likely to have.

Rose also had on the Pentagon correspondent for CBS who reported that the military plans to drop as many bombs on Iraq in the first 24-hours as were dropped in all of the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
Lily
Lily
Chicago, IL, - Tuesday, March 18th 2003 - 05:01:51 PM

My opinion on Bush's address last night? It's a travesty and a tragedy, listening to the President of the United States say, essentially, "Come out with your hands up!" Commentators on PBS agreed that this sort of media diplomacy was absolutely unknown before now. (PBS television is one of the few places you can find in depth information on Saddam Hussein and on the key players behind the new U.S policy to export democracy through pre-emptive wars. Paul Wolfowitz leads the way. If you haven't read this transcript, you might want to check it out. Wolfowitz has been pushing the attack agenda for quite a while, it seems to many people.)

Someone from the GB where she coud find info, maybe she should start with Frontline.

GML, the Lysistrata event was a smattering of performance pieces (musical, spoken poetry, dance, and original texts), some very grave, some parody, some just plain moving. One poem I recall said that "wisdom is a pale colour". Another solo piece was performed by a young man, a soldier's thoughts before war. There was a call and response piece where the characters called for courage on the part of each individual. "When I see 'Countdown to War' in red letters on the nightly news..."/ "I shall not be afraid."/"When they change the colors of the security alert..."/"I shall not be afraid." /"When I am called un-American for calling for peace..."/ "I shall not be afraid." That piece ended with the question, "Why does my country want me to be afraid?"

Fools for war were clowns, who, in their "attack" with cream pies, ended up with the pies in their own faces...There was an address by "George Bush", with twisted words and mixed metaphors, and a weird monologue by a "teacher" who argued she could do Condoleeza Rice's job. The Greek-inspired piece was an a capella group called "Chaos", in the style of a Greek chorus, almost. But nothing like the play Lysistrata itself, I'd guess. I asked the woman who produced the show, and she said since other theatre groups were doing readings, this would be an outlet for alternative exchanges. So it was.

There are some photos from the Lysistrata Project on the peace page of the Daily Telegiraffe, at least for now.

I watched Robin Cook's resignation as it happened. It was very moving; you could see that it was so hard for him.

Lucida, thanks for the CD II report. And Lily, Dee, thanks for your comments. Don't lose heart. Ana, you can find the rest of Senator Byrd's speech by following the link in my post below. There's a link to it off the DT as well.


Renie
CA, - Tuesday, March 18th 2003 - 12:06:11 PM

I heard today that George Clooney, Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins will suffer some sort of blacklisting this year at the Oscars. I heard this on the radio, but cannot recall if it was AM news radio or KPFK (listener ONLY supported--no corporate sponsors). Ah well. I marched on Saturday in downtown Los Angeles. It was raining and horribly cold. I think the police held up the march for 45 minutes in the hopes we would give up and go home. Nonetheless, it proceeded, but it was in some sense rather ominous. Nothing but cold gray skies, on and on and on . . . how did that go Lily? Well, it's 10 minutes to 5:00 p.m. and I guess I must go watch the little Dictator. I hope everyone who posts here gives their opinion of the wretched speech. Dang.
Dee
US of stinking A, - Monday, March 17th 2003 - 04:54:07 PM

George Clooney? Who knew!! Good for him! The usual folks (Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Martin Sheen) get listed in stories here but others don't get mentioned. Usually one of those petitions in a major newspaper clues us in on others whom you'd never guess at as antiwar people--for example, Marisa Tomei was a surprise to me. There are many, many more. And they are so helpful because they provide cover for people to come out and register opposition. (Especially if there are a lot of celebrities, otherwise they're too isolated and in possible trouble.) And they are helpful because it costs an absolute fortune to run a full-page ad in a major newspaper.

Belgian fries. There's a weekly Times Op-Ed page columnist who called today for moving NATO headquarters out of Belgium and into one of the countries in "New Europe" but this guy hasn't got the best record with his predictions, thank heavens.

GML, any reporting in European papers or knowledge on your side of the Atlantic explaining why in NATO the Netherlands agreed to send missiles to Turkey (speaking of which--well that's a discussion for another time)? What was it, influence of Royal Dutch Petroleum? The decision seemed odd. (I suppose I'd know if I read "The Economist" but, there you go, I don't.)

Re thinking there will be a press conference tomorrow night, the 18th, saying it has begun: I think the blasting of the diplomatic option via the UN and inspections is out of sync with military readiness on the ground and with the phase of the moon. But I think Rumsfeld and Cheney are so confident that they're saying go forward regardless. They'll lose the "steamroller" effect if they don't move very quickly now that they've closed all other doors. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be on the receiving end in a country that is going to be hit, just waiting like this with family and children.

If you (I) don't turn on the news, this day, which is incredibly lovely, is like being in la-la land which is very eerie. Bush is here for the St.Pat's parade seeing Daley. See you all later.
Lily



Lily
Chicago, IL, - Monday, March 17th 2003 - 09:26:54 AM

Sh*t: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030316/ap_on_re_eu/azores_summit_39

Now I'm gettin' kinda scared. I hope we can all stay in touch even if this foolishness proceeds.
Dee
Stinking USA, - Sunday, March 16th 2003 - 09:18:10 PM

Alan lying on the floor before his speech at the C.D. II? Why, he won't be there?

PS:I loved that part of the speech you posted, where's the rest?
Ana
Spain, - Sunday, March 16th 2003 - 04:03:44 PM

Just a little catching up... Lucinda, thanks for the report, I'll try my best to go to CDIII and I'll report here.

Renie, I really am not sure where the Greek dialogue acted by Lindsay came from, duh, but do tell us what was the Lysistrata event you attended like? (Alan took part in one here but I could not make it to London that day). And I do agree about your stand on education spending. It is very important because only kids who have been taught to *think* at school through unbiased quality education will be in a position to hold valid opinions as adults and see through the type of propaganda we are witnessing now even in the West. No doubt this is why Tony Blair is trying hard to increase the number of religious groups-funded schools in this country, an endoctrinated people is so much easier to control! How embarrassing for him that every church so far has sided against this war! :)

Dee, About not having such a star as Alan in the US, I thought I would draw your attention to George Clooney. I have never paid much attention to him as an actor, I have to confess, but as an anti-Iraq-war protester, I must say he has been very eloquent. Many British newspaper magazines published interviews. Oh, and I can't afford Evian myself (not in Britain, anyway, everything is twice the price it is anywhere else) but thanks again for your efforts. You are quite right, in a world ruled by money, you can be heard through what you buy (or do not buy;).

Lily, I hope you are wrong about a war starting on Tuesday, but it sounds increasingly like you were right. The so-called Coalition of the Willing (the three of them left;) are coming out of their summit in a few minutes time with a statement and I can't wait to hear the rubbish they'll give us. There never was a genuine effort from these for peaceful disarmament and this was all a big charade to try and bribe the UN into legalizing the war they wanted. Fortunately, leaders are finding it difficult to accept the tempting bribes and lose all their voters in the process. Oh, and was it you said you're having moules and frites any chance you get? Gee, I had no idea you could get them in the US. Belgian national dish. My friends and I used to cycle over the Franco-Belgian border as kids (and a fairly mountainous border that was) just to sit in a cafe and eat these. Oh, and buy kilos of Leonidas chocolates, before they became posh and expensive.

So, where is Claire? Panicking that she is hosting a monster and expecting the FBI and MI6 to burst through her front door any minute? ;)

GML
- Sunday, March 16th 2003 - 10:22:51 AM

Thanks, Lucida, for the report on CDII and AR. Sounds like it was great. I'm so glad he is involved (oh! and you too and everybody else!)
Dee
US, - Saturday, March 15th 2003 - 08:00:41 AM

RT, this is a place where fans of Alan Rickman are allowed to talk about something else than Alan Rickman. I'm afraid this includes politics. If you are looking for a page on Alan Rickman only, may I suggest Suzanne's Unofficial Alan Rickman Fan Page. Click on her 'Guestbook' link and see you there!

And now the Collateral Damage Report: Thanks Sarah, I was there too (Collateral Damage II) and I think you caught the mood beautifully. I never noticed Alan sitting at a table, he was already kneeling (or rather standing on his knees) on the floor when I saw him, and he was practically lying on the floor on his side when I saw him again later on. What can I add to your report? I went to the last Collateral Damage evening and I think it was a little more crowded this time, and the crowd itself was more varied. There were quite a few people who seemed to have come straight from work and thought this would be a good thing to attend before going back home to their everyday life. Vanessa Regrave said that the song she sang (accompanied by gentle violin music) was written at the time she was marching against the Vietnam war. The poem she read was Palestinian. Bill Nighy was as funny this time as he was serious last time. I hope he appears in the CL evenings to come. The piece (Ron) he acted sounded very familiar. Either I have read it somewhere, or more likely, I have read something extremely similar (quite a while ago) (rewriting current international relationships by substituting familiar individuals for whole countries is a great device and it does bring things home to people). The serious politician speech came from Alan this time. He was introduced as the Great Alan Rickman. Big cheer. You already know what he read/acted. He found a chair to sit on after his piece. The dialogue acted at the end was very funny too (I wish I had taken notes): ennemies being defined as friends of ennemies, ennemies of friends, friends as ennemies of friends, or ennemies of other ennemies, you get the drift, I am not doing it justice. Oh, and Sarah, I notice that you have omitted the poem written by Harold Pinter and read by Colin Redgrave¡­ I don't want to get it wrong so I will quote the only bit I remember faithfully : ¡°F*ck!¡± ¡°The big pr*cks are out¡±. It was as short and brutal as the war we are about to witness. I didn¡¯t try to speak to Alan either at the end. I know the way to attract people to such events is to convince big names like him to attend and any subsequent attention from fan who only came to see him is politely received as part of the package, but I personally felt that fan-behaviour would be out of place in this case. This was not about Alan, this was about what is being thrown at the world by the White House and blamed on European "real" friends.
Lucida
- Saturday, March 15th 2003 - 03:57:59 AM

Ummmm, I won't offend anybody but... Is this a place where people talk about Alan Rickman????

No more politics please, I've got enough on the news.
RT
- Saturday, March 15th 2003 - 03:43:25 AM

I urge you all to read Senator Byrd's speech, and to pass it along to as many people you know.

I never bought Evian water before, but I do now.
Dee
- Friday, March 14th 2003 - 05:41:22 PM

In southern California, there is a huge shortage of teachers. At one time, teachers could be hired while they were obtaining their credential. This can no longer be done because of legislation signed by George W. Bush. Indeed, massive layoffs of teachers are expected next week. There is currently a freeze on purchasing new equipment and texts for L.A. schools. The government is taking 33.3% of my paycheck. Gotta buy some more stealth bombers I guess. After all, the U.S. has its priorities.

Protests are planned for tomorrow and one will be held in downtown Los Angeles at noon. I doubt it will make the news. I feel a duty to go. I am optimistic that this war will not happen.
Dee
US, - Friday, March 14th 2003 - 05:26:18 PM

Lily, I have to agree--there will be nothing here in U.S. communities to "secure" except what used to be a thriving Democracy, crippled by a budget deficit more deadly than all the bombs put together. Yeah, a tax cut of a few bucks is just what I need…
Here is the Senator Robert Byrd's speech which Rickman read at Collateral damage, if Eric, the AR GB poster, is correct. I'm not sure if Rickman read all or just part of the speech. Byrd is a Democrat from West Virginia.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0212-07.htm
And here is part of the text…

"The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together?"---Robert Byrd

And here is a related link: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14248
Georgiana, I hope you've arrived safely, and that you post your CD II report here, too.

Renie
Marin, CA , - Friday, March 14th 2003 - 11:16:32 AM

A post, although I should be on my way to work. I figure the bombing will begin Tuesday eve. They might wait until after St.Patrick's day although given the look on Bush's face at Berttie Ahern's comment yesterday, Bush and his admin might prefer to begin on Monday.

Photos of the B-2 stealth bombers taking off from Missouri to drop a load of some 16+ heavy duty bombs, without ever having to stop to re-fuel, or whatever, and with the guys on board ordering pizza as they get close to home on the round-trip (this is what they did regularly per reports during the bombing of Kosovo and Yugoslavia) convince me of the approximate date. Horrifying image isn't it.

The discrepant level of the U.S.'s military strength vis a vis any other country makes the attacks against civilians here and abroad inevitable because it's the only way for an opposition to fight back. Can't be done on a battlefield. So it's a new level of guerilla warfare. One reason, among many, why this war isn't for anyone's safety (certainly not mine or any of ours).

Renie, I'm with you,..homeland security? (This is supposedly Hillary's point of strength for building a base of voter support--give me a break!) What's happening to Social Security and some security please on the health care front, in addition to spending for education? On the positive side, as a number of you probably know, it's because of the drastic reallocation of funds to military spending and "homeland security" that an incredible number of city councils in the U.S. have voted against the war. In January the Chicago City Council, seldom a pretty spot, voted 46 to 1 against the war and have encouraged the Chgo Board of Education to allow students to receive anti-war information and participate in events. Philadelphia, Detroit, San Francisco, Seattle and more on are on the same page. And I hear a loud and seriously divided meeting of NYC borough reps finally came out with an anti-war position.

I watched most of the news channels last night and everyone from Koppel to CNN, MSNBC, etc., has brought in the generals, moved their reporters to Kuwaitt, is showing off military equipment and soldiers. As GML says, the propaganda war now goes into high gear.

I'm eating moule with frites every chance I get.

Lily
Lily
Chicago, IL, - Friday, March 14th 2003 - 07:31:00 AM

Speaking of the media, when the marches were all happening, the local news channels here broadcast--over and over and over--a story about 15 people who staged their own pro-war demonstration. They gave the marchers little air time. AR is well-known in the UK and he isn't afraid to voice his opinion (which will obviously sway many who admire him), too bad we don't have a similar star in the US.
Dee
- Thursday, March 13th 2003 - 05:55:39 PM

Claire: nice Bushism, very funny. Let's send Bush to the front!!
Dee
- Thursday, March 13th 2003 - 05:35:56 PM

GML, thanks for your impressions of CD 1. It must be funny to see Lindsay Duncan outfitted in something which is clearly not "jagged with sophistication". I wonder if the dialogue between Greek cities came from Lysistrata? The Lysistrata project I attended was more riffing, and not
a single group or person did anything resembling a straight text reading. (Which, I understand, can be very funny, and risque, depending on the translation.)

As far as opinions on the war, and whether it's advisable, I'd like to think that people are open to adjusted or even new points of view, if given new, or correct, information. Sometimes it's a matter of not knowing alternatives, or of not understanding the consequences of beginning a war. Or even ackowledging that such consequences may be costly, and irreversible. No action in the global arena is made in isolation, and the posturing and actions of the US seem to ignore that fact. The fear is that it's not just posturing, from Prsident Bush and the more extreme right-wingers in his cabinet. Having leaders who are unable or unwilling to listen to opposing views--let alone give them the consideration such views deserve--is very frustrating for many Americans. As it is for many Europeans, and other peoples in the world community. Which is why even just your "average" person is taking steps to have his/her point of view heard, using whatever means are available. In whatever country. Because we are all affected by war. And the prospect of a developing World War is a frightening possibility.

It's important to realize that those people who are against waging this war are far from alone. And also, that public opinion DOES count for a lot. It's never too late to express your opinion. The political pulse is always being measured, and the winds of change are never completely still, however slight they may sometimes feel.

Dee, every poll shows that the US is divided about the war, so maybe people in other countries do realize that there are many, many families who oppose this war. I figure the more we tell them, the more they'll know!

To those who want to fund this war, and the "war on terrorism" in general: I don't want to fund a Department of Homeland Security; I want the money Bush is using for that to be returned to the educational/school funds for my children's schools, which are suffering budget cuts which are ghastly. If we aren't careful, and vocal, we will be a country which only knows how to go to war.

And now, I'll slide off the soapbox!
Renie
- Thursday, March 13th 2003 - 01:01:21 PM

Dee & Lilly, don't feel disheartened about your patriotic compatriots ;). It is an accepted fact on all fronts here (even in the UK and mentioned on the BBC) that the US media are very, very heavily controlled by the State at the moment and that no real news are allowed to pass on prime time TV. You cannot blame your people who sincerely think (coz they've heard it on TV) that the French all have red forky little tails and have decided to veto 'any' proposal coming from the US or the UK. These 'patriots' are pretty well in the same situation as the average Iraqi who believes what he hears on the Iraqi TV controlled by Saddam: simply not in a position to make an informed judgement. It is pretty obvious that if the US/UK thought they could carry all the other votes, or even the minimum 9 required, they would be only too happy to have that UN vote take place now, if only to prove their claim that France (and Russia, and Germany, and China, and Syria and Cameroon;) are isolated.

The fact of the matter is that the number of countries who have declared themselves against an imminent war led by the US/UK clearly is such that the resolution would simply never be carried by a majority, vetoed or not. A scapegoat has to be found and the French are the all-times favourite. It's all about saving face. Frankly, my worry about the fate of democracy is what is happening to it in the West, not what is happening to it in Iraq.

Anyway, time for a little plug, if you happen to live close to London:

"Warcrime Inaugurates Theatre Underground Crypt

David Williams' highly topical play Warcrime will receive its world premiere in London later this month, inaugurating a raw new theatre space (...) Warcrime will open on 26 March 2003 (following previews from 24 April) and continue until 19 April at "Theatre Underground" in the crypt of St Andrew's Church Holborn.

In a courtroom, a young waitress, killed by an off-course cluster bomb, is brought face to face with the pilot responsible for her death. When observing from this distance, do we really know anything about the lives of the people we are so quick to assess? Warcrime exposes the gaps between CNN and real lives, and confronts the absurdities and human costs of recent wars - and of those still to come.

GML
- Thursday, March 13th 2003 - 12:53:17 PM

Hey Lily, here is an amusing site you might enjoy (I know I did) to help get some frustration out on Dubya himself: http://www.dancingbush.com/. Very interesting atmosphere here in Los Angeles. I did attend the anti-war march in Hollywood a few weeks back, and there were many people--but they seem to have all disappeared. I can't even discuss war issues with the people I work with because they support the whole mess. I'm shocked and disheartened on a daily basis. I feel America is under the rule of a tyrant and that democracy died when the court appointed Bush president against the will of the people. I do not, under any circumstances, want a war and I am embarrassed by my government. I hope Europeans realize that we don't all support Bush! Oh well, I could go on all day, but I'm starting to get depressed . . .
Dee
Pasadena, CA, USA, - Thursday, March 13th 2003 - 08:47:40 AM

People on the GB who support this imperial enterprise are the only ones I've encountered, which adds to my frustration because I/we can't communicate with them and I doubt they will visit here. Perhaps as the horrible military adventure unfolds, we could leave a note or two on the GB reminding people that this spot exists. It isn't that I think Bush admin supporters are open to conversion, rather I wouldn't mind having the ear of those teetering in their support.

This page I'm on says "Sign the Book" not "Submit"...Guess I'll learn soon enough if I've hit all the right buttons.
Lily
Chicago, IL, - Wednesday, March 12th 2003 - 07:28:58 AM

Right. Off Topic, eh? How Off-Topic? Are semi On-Topic subjects allowed?;) Since I'm full of it, I thought I'd post about the Collateral Damage I event here (no AR present, unless he'd rolled out of sight under a table before I got there ;).

AS mentioned before, I got there a bit early, plopped myself on the floor and waited. Very familiar-looking guy materialized from nowhere (Bill Nighie, of Blow-Dry fame) and looked so absorbed in the whole thing, I thought he must be the organizer (found out later the Redgrave gang are). He joined in conversation with people unknown to me about 'Lindsay' (presumably Duncan). (Full transcript available to said lady on payment of a suitable bribe.) (Just joking, purely trivial conversation of the 'is she here yet?' kind). Next thing I knew, said lady had materialized from the same nowhere and had joined the afore-mentioned lot. Grey skirt suit and generally very schoolmistressy appearance, except that schoolmistresses always get it wrong somehow, and she gets it right.

Jeremy Hardy started the evening with a few audience-warming jokes about the war and the widely-held belief that the UK and US leaders must know something we don't. He protested against the notion that Bush knew anything *he* didn't with examples in the vein that *he* knew how to spell Iraq. He also slipped in a few hints to the effect that the evil Iraq was part of an advanced civilization long before the words 'United States' appeared in any dictionary.

OK, it was a while ago and I didn't take notes. There were songs, one of which I remember as 'Everybody hates us... so let's drop the big ooone', and readings, including a dialogue between ancient Greece cities acted in part by Lindsay (she was the weaker city, trying to convince the stronger one that their war was illegitimate and a disaster for humanity's values while the business-like strong one pointed out they had everything to gain by crushing her). Sorry, I forget which book it came from. Some account of the endless wars and shifting alliances between Athens, Corinth and the Spartians.

Well, there was Kenneth Clarke's anti-war Speech read by BN (answering Blair's claim that he doesn't want to feel responsible for any Iraq-led attack by pointing out does he want to feel responsible for any increase in pisssed-off terrorist attacks?).

There was much more, and there was a thank you message and a round of applause for the American actors who have taken a stance against this war and have been threatened with legal action in their own country for claiming their right of speech. Then I was running to get my train home, and that's it folks. If any of you's lucky enough to attend the next ones, let us know here as well.
GML
- Tuesday, March 11th 2003 - 01:51:58 PM

No, I don't... Maybe I have noticed this, but in Spanish, he, he.
Lucida, I think taht everybody is taking holidays. Nobodyd but Claire, has write here since the last week.
See you!
Ana
Spain, - Tuesday, March 11th 2003 - 12:35:44 PM

Has anybody else noticed that if Tony Blair amends his proposed whatever-umpth resolution once more in his efforts to get UN votes,it will be an exact copy of the German/French/Russian proposal, LOL! Alan for PM,Alan for PM! :)
Lucida
- Tuesday, March 11th 2003 - 10:10:26 AM

Interesting Bushism:
http://www.deadzoom.com/member/betashopper/bushbaby1.jpg
Claire
- Monday, March 10th 2003 - 12:57:07 PM

Now if only *I* could live a bit closer to the NT...

Thanks, Claire.

Renie
- Monday, March 10th 2003 - 12:45:59 PM

Judi Dench, Alan Rickman, Jude Law are expected to take part in COLLATERAL DAMAGE events at the National Theatre.

National Theatre site for information on the Collateral Damage events in response to the "..issues that surround the impending war on Iraq...." All reports welcome from attendees.
Claire
- Sunday, March 9th 2003 - 01:05:36 PM