HARD WATER AND OTHER OBJECTS

A discussion

This panel discussion discussion occurred after the presentation of Acme: Hard Water and Other Objects at the Seventh Performance Studies Conference (PS7), Mainz, Germany. Other panel members: Dinah Jung (University of Leipzig) and Max Schumacher (New York University). Chair: Richard Gough (CPR, Aberystwyth).

Laurie Beth Clarke (University of Wisconsin, Madison): You talked about the rupture of the everyday, like what would happen if you did actually put that on a supermarket shelf. I'm interested in discomfort that's created in me right here...this making of surreal art objects has a whole history in the art world, and the objects were then treated very preciously. Like you would make the object and then put it into a museum and display it in a context where it's made precious. So the rupture that's happening for me today is when you tear open that box, and I know the labour that went into making that box...so there's another rupture going on in terms of rupturing the art world treatment of the precious surreal object.

RD: It's strange because I'm working at the Tate Modern at the moment...and it's quite interesting there's certain galleries that are looking at artwork that supposedly had some sort of tactile reference to it...a lot of the Fluxus things, with objects presented in boxes that were supposed to handed out, or the mail art things, but again they just end up behind glass vitrines, and I've thought about how I would show these things other than in a performance, and it's coming to the conclusion that you can't touch things in a gallery, whereas I would want to 'please touch' rather than 'don't touch'. And then...are they worthless after they've been broken? I don't know, it's another sort of thing...a huge amount of Joseph Beuys stuff of his old bits of detritus from his performances being shown probably still have a tremendous amount of value, certainly within the art market.

Sally Banes (University of Wisconsin, Madison): I think what's wonderful about these objects is that their surrealism can't be detected until they are opened up or destroyed in some way, so that's part of their surrealism...they are not already open to seeing the fur inside the teacup or whatever...it looks like a normal egg or a normal hammer, until it's destroyed, or opened up.

RD: The concern I have is when you take a closer look, if you have it in your hand, it becomes quite obvious what it is, so it's like when I was talking about where people are sitting at the back, or when I've done performances with these in very crowded rooms, or in club like environments, then you can get away with a lot more, but that's not necessarily that challenging...I could make the objects more shoddy...I don't know, maybe it was quite obvious.

Richard Gough (CPR, Aberystwyth): I was with you when you were unpacking this stuff, and I was thinking, what on earth is he going to do with these six hammers? I had no idea that they were...whatever they are. I also quite like the idea that objects have their own life too...the broken jug and your hard water eventually took over you...

RD: I do feel precious about these things, and they're quite specific to me performing with them, or me demonstrating them to you...and I don't know how I'd feel about just handing them over, or giving them to other people or placing them, to see how other people would use them, because I still feel like I'd be standing over them going 'no, no, don't do it that way, do it this way, it works better'...I'm still wanting to cling onto them.

Juanita Incognita (5 Cities Project): Another thought I had was that usually performers transform themselves...so it's kind of refreshing.

RD: But it's strange because...sometimes these things misbehave, and they don't act the way I expect them to...and you have to deal with it, and that can be quite fun from my point of view. I had terrible fears about getting through customs with stuff, certainly with eggs...with the situation at the moment in England, (the foot and mouth disease outbreak) but I managed to somehow.

Richard Gough: When you said at the beginning that this was highlights from performances, do many of these have their origins in performance projects that you have done?

RD: They're from about three separate performances. The frying pan was from a separate thing, the hammers are actually new...and the sand and the cactus, that came from something I did years ago. And then the egg, washing powder, toilet paper and matches in lightbulbs came from a specific piece of work that was called 'Hard Water and Other Objects'. And the word 'Acme' came from another performance where I was thinking of the Roadrunner cartoons where you have these products made by 'Acme'...that don't work.

Richard Gough: So you're working as a performance artist, they're all made for performance, so how do you feel now, working in the Tate where many objects are being placed in a glass vitrine?

RD: I'm ambivalent about it because part of my job is telling people not to touch things. There's several different kinds of touching though...there's the swathes of school children, just going...urghh...on a painting. Then in some other cases where you get certain people who want to...I mean I've felt tempted to touch things, but it's difficult trying to discern between the people who you think, that touching is legitimate, and the other people who are just touching it for the hell of it.

Liz Tomlin (Manchester Metropolitan University): It was just in the introduction when you were introducing it, and you were using phrases like 'niggers in the woodpile' and I just wondered is there a wider political implication to the work? Is that something you'd want people to take away from it, or is it more just about the fun and surprise element and skill that goes into it?

RD: It depends what performance you're talking about really, because as I said, bits of text have been culled from particular things which I used with the objects. It may be, I don't know really...there's lots of things going on. I think you could probably use it as a wider analogy for things being out of place...but if you start going down that road it sounds a bit cheesy. But maybe.

Richard Gough: And why haven't you had the courage?

RD: Because I'd get in trouble! I don't know. They'd probably bang me up for doing that wouldn't they? I really don't know how I'd do that...putting something back on a shelf...

Richard Gough: They might well...but there is quite a tradition of artists who have...a very famous Copenhagen group in the 70's and 80's who did a lot of very anarchic things...One of the things they did was to dress up as Father Christmas (this was around Christmas time) and go into the department stores...take things off the counters and give them to children. The store detectives began to realise there were more Father Christmas's in the store than there should have been, and then of course, which were the real Father Christmas's? This was all part of their intended project, but the real intent of their project was the final moment when the stores would telephone the police, and the police came to arrest the Father Christmas's, but they were very sharp because they had informed the press that this would be happening, so the next day, front of the newspaper, is Father Christmas being arrested for giving gifts away...and a lot of them did end up in prison...and they were very much playing on that border line...but something like the lightbulb with the hundred matches coming out of it...if I bought that, I'd be delighted.

RD: But if you were making an omelette and you opened one of those eggs...or doing your washing, maybe you wouldn't be so...I suppose it's quite non-specific if we were talking about targeting specific people who maybe I would feel deserved that...I don't know if that's fair on the general populace...maybe I need to be specific if I want to go further with that.

Unknown: I don't know if it's a universal holiday but April 1st in the States is April Fools Day. I would pay a dollar ninety-eight for a hammer that would fall apart in someone's hands...because then you could say April Fool which allows you to do any darn thing you want. So maybe the idea is to do everything on April 1st.

RD: It's still being responsible for your actions, and I still find that's a big question and whether or not I want to make the distinction between the sort of person who would do something to hurt someone...there's no agenda, it's just wanting to see what would happen. I haven't even thought about why I would want to do that...why I want to put this on a supermarket shelf. I just wonder. What would happen?

Eleanor Margolies: I liked the question about the weight of the egg, the caution about whether the hammer is going to smash, and I just wondered if you're more cautious about the everyday things of the world?

RD: I'm always finding myself thinking, how can I change this? How could I take this object and...adjust it?And how subtle you could make that...thinking about if you could arrange some kind of time thing on it so it could act absolutely perfectly for a certain length of time, and then...

Richard Gough: I think that's what manufacturing does! What's your feeling towards the remnants, the detritus? Are we free to take it away? A Robin Deacon original?

RD: Yeah, help yourselves...just mind the glass.